Comments on Decompressing Faith: A Place for Us

Anon - For the record, I've only "left" one churc...

2008-06-23T14:47:00.000-07:00

Anon - For the record, I've only "left" one church, so I fail to see a pattern.

yes, and this "Thrive" will disappoint too, becaus...

2008-06-23T14:23:00.000-07:00

yes, and this "Thrive" will disappoint too, because they are sinners too. Someone will do something "mean" or "controlling" and then you will stalk out of there too and start a fresh whinefest about how "no where is safe"> Guess what: no where IS safe: all you can change is yourself. Its like people who divorce endless spouses only to realize in the end that the common thread was THEM and it wasn't the matter of finding the right person but being the right person.

the modern church:" jesus, its all about meeee.......

2008-06-23T14:20:00.000-07:00

the modern church:" jesus, its all about meeee....it's all about meeeee Jesus. Make your church meet my needs Jesus, because we know, its all about meeeeee."

Tracy - Wow it seems I've heard you mention Thrive...

2008-05-22T10:43:00.000-07:00

Tracy - Wow it seems I've heard you mention Thrive several places, but it may be my imagination just because you seem so excited about it.

I'm very glad you have found a place to start, because really that's all that matters and all that it takes. God will do the rest. I'm interested to hear how it goes as time gets on, so keep me posted.

Erin, I so agree with you. So many focus on the si...

2008-05-22T03:55:00.000-07:00

Erin, I so agree with you. So many focus on the sin as though that is the problem. It's just the symptom of what is happening in the heart.

As to Thrive, you made me laugh out loud with that comment :0). I've only mentioned it on two blogs, so it was funny to me. But, you're right in that my enthusiasm is quite high!

What I like is that it's a great starting point: Our group is doing things very different from what they normally do, and that for me is where I've seen the hearts of the people behind Thrive.

They are supportive of us veering off the path and trying new things, new ways, etc. We are experimenting with some things they've not tried before, and they're saying, "Go for it!" It's seeing that kind of lack of control that has repeatedly brought me to tears. I don't know about you, but I just have so seldom encountered that in any ministry or church. If we "fail" at our experiment, they'll help pick us up off the ground and try again in a different way if we want to.

Anyway, for us Thrive is a launching pad for us to go where we think we're being led, into some new territory. I no longer think any material or ministry is "IT," but we needed a place to launch from and they have beautifully provided that for us.

Their support of us not "following" everything they've written down is amazing to me. I'm just not a "one size fits all" kind of woman, you know? They get that and support it. I've never encountered that in my world before. The day Jonathan said to me, "This is just A path, not THE path," I knew I'd found a starting place for meeting with people. So far, so good; we've only just begun. I'll keep you posted!

Well, Barb, it's good that we have each other!

2008-05-21T21:39:00.000-07:00

Well, Barb, it's good that we have each other!

Me too Erin!

2008-05-21T18:06:00.000-07:00

Me too Erin!

Brian - You are so right. If I didn't have this pl...

2008-05-21T17:09:00.000-07:00

Brian - You are so right. If I didn't have this place online, I'd nearly go nuts with the feelings and fears that I'm all alone.

Erin, You are where I am, and it is an exciting an...

2008-05-21T15:45:00.000-07:00

Erin,

You are where I am, and it is an exciting and nerve-wracking place to be.

Also quite lonely at times . . .

Thank you for sharing that, Jonathan. I'm thinking...

2008-05-21T13:11:00.000-07:00

Thank you for sharing that, Jonathan. I'm thinking "Wow, there's more?" because Tracy has been talking up Thrive all over the place and making many of us curious about it...

Tracy - I think you hit on something really import...

2008-05-21T13:07:00.000-07:00

Tracy - I think you hit on something really important. That is, when people are acting out in sin, it's not the sin that needs fixing (external) but the pain inside that is driving the sin (internal). We can do whatever we want to try to get them to stop sinning, but until the pain inside is healed, they will just relapse or move to something else. Not only that but our desire to see the end to sin only makes the person feel unloved.

So in my experience I had to just love them where they were and trust that God would heal the pain, because I wanted the internal to be healed, not just the external behavior (I think Jesus said something to that effect ;-) but I was so brainwashed to believe the sin was the problem, not the internal pain or whatever.

To all who long for authentic community. I just w...

2008-05-21T10:32:00.000-07:00

To all who long for authentic community. I just want you to know that there are some of us who are intentionally working to create the alternatives you have been seeking and longing for. We hope within the next 3-6 months to begin rolling out those possibilities.

The project is called Tribe and has been in development for at least 6 years but the time is fast approaching when it will be available.

Stay tuned for more.

Erin, I did not take it that way all--so no worrie...

2008-05-21T09:29:00.000-07:00

Erin, I did not take it that way all--so no worries there!

This conversation has really clarified one thing for me that is beautiful. I realize how when people are really hurting and just cannot face their pain or wounds or scars or whatever, that's when I think we need to really just stay with them and love them, and not require that they face what they are not able to at that time. I have really needed this in my own life for a long time, since religious coercion was previously used to get me to "measure up."If anyone had tried to pressure me before I was trusting and ready, forget it!

I think this is where so many of us have been wounded in the past: When someone is trying to force us into seeking healing or restoration when we're just not ready yet for whatever reason. And I often think that we have to sometimes be loved for a long, long time in that place before we can trust enough to even be willing to look up and see if healing is really a possibility for us.

Most of us have never been loved like this (and I think we all long for it). Instead, we've been told we're wounded and we need to get healing and get "over it." We all know how much THAT helps! Ha!

I'm thinking about how love looks different for someone that isn't quite ready yet to go after whatever it is that's holding them back from joy as opposed to loving someone who finally trusts someone or some group of people in their lives enough to say, "I need help. Will you walk with me through this?" It can take a long time to develop that kind of trust, and the reality is, most people don't want to put the time in for it to develop, do they? The point is love, not healing. I'm so glad I have people in my life that will put in the time, and that I have people in my life that I'm willing to put in the time with them.

Just some more random thoughts you're stirring up in this brain of mine, Erin!

Jeff, I would suppose that would have to do with w...

2008-05-21T08:10:00.000-07:00

Jeff, I would suppose that would have to do with what the agenda was.

I looked up the definition of "agenda" and got this:

something that is to be done

So in that case, I think love is an agenda. But there can be wrong agenda, too...i.e. trying to demand that others change.

Oh Tracy, I don't mean to sound as though I'm knoc...

2008-05-21T08:07:00.000-07:00

Oh Tracy, I don't mean to sound as though I'm knocking where you're at or what you're doing, because your excitement is infectious!

I think I'm just in a place where I'm still trying to discern the balance of how to handle it when people are really struggling.

Erin:a few comments up (maybe two), the thing that...

2008-05-21T07:59:00.000-07:00

Erin:

a few comments up (maybe two), the thing that jumps at me is the word "agenda".

I think so many times, we "agenda" and we do it without even recognizing it.

Then I am chewing on - wether agenda is biblical or is it anti-biblical.

Erin, I completely agree with what you've said. We...

2008-05-21T07:22:00.000-07:00

Erin, I completely agree with what you've said. We cannot fix anyone, nor are we called to do so, EVER, in my opinion! I also think that we can never, ever, ever force anyone on this journey. The minute I "smell" force, I'm out of there! But someone that is in my life is desperate and miserable and wants to be free, I want to be there offering to walk with them on that journey, you know?

I guess I'm speaking from the place where I am at. I'm meeting with a group of people and every single one of us is just ready to live as free as we can and to drop the chains that we've clung to. We're tired of it and ready to be free, so we'll journey together in that process. It might not be the right time or the right journey for anyone else, but for us, it's time and it's glorious!

You know, Tracy, While I really like what you say ...

2008-05-21T06:49:00.000-07:00

You know, Tracy, While I really like what you say and hear the truth in it, I think in my experience I was so burned by "restoration" that it's a huge trigger for me. All I really feel able or willing to give or receive is complete freedom. Maybe that is wrong...but there it is.

Personally I found that we CAN'T fix each other, all we can do is love each other and be willing to be used by God in the process of restoration. As soon as we *try* to aid in restoration, we have an agenda and that person will feel judged. Because it's not up to me how or how long God will take to heal someone, all I can do is be free to love and let God work in my relationship with that person however he sees fit.

Erin, what a conversation you've started, woman! I...

2008-05-21T04:09:00.000-07:00

Erin, what a conversation you've started, woman! I'm loving it!

You wrote: "But then we also have to know and accept that we aren't supposed to "fix" each other. Well, we did say that, but when it came down to it people wanted to try to fix each other because, I don't know, how do you find the balance between condoning damaging behavior and being judgmental, trying to fix it?"

This, in my opinion, is where we all have been kept in such ignorance because we've not had many spiritual fathers who can raise us up in the truth. I am only just now coming to understand these truths, and I've been a Christian for 24 years and was formerly a "pastor" at a church.

The balance is found in that God always wants to bring restoration to His people, even while they are 100% completely acceptable as they are. As an example: A person is no more acceptable to God if they never look at porn versus if they are a total porn addict. Their acceptance is 100% already taken care of at the cross. So, I can accept that person just as they are, where they are, how they are. However, they are being robbed of relationship (because porn, above all, is an isolating, pain-numbing thing), and so we want to see restoration come to them where their sexuality is broken, where their relationships are broken, where they are using porn to numb their pain, etc.

In this example, porn is just a symptom of where reconciliation needs to take place between a wounded part of this person and their relationship to God. So, we want to see them restored so that they can experience the abundant life that Jesus promised that so few have, but our view of that person, our acceptance of them, our love for them, etc., does not change one bit while they are in the midst of their porn addiction. We want total freedom for that person even while we unconditionally love them as they stumble along the path of being made whole. We become willing to walk with them while they stumble along.

And if they do not see that they have a problem that is keeping them from being free and living joyfully, we are their mirrors that they cannot escape from. There really is a loving confrontation that brings people to freedom. Most of us, though, have experience a false, plastic version of this and we know how damaging it can be. That, however, does not negate that the real thing exists, you know?

I don't know if I've just made that clear as mud! I do know that I've experienced unconditional acceptance in the midst of my BS and garbage, even while being loved toward restoration of all things within me. I am determined to offer this to others as well, even while my own healing and restoration continues (as it is a lifelong process that never ends until we see him face to face).

Sorry for the length! I am passionate about this and got carried away!

Hey SuzyQ. That's interesting, I never thought abo...

2008-05-20T18:42:00.000-07:00

Hey SuzyQ. That's interesting, I never thought about how these same people would treat family different. You are right. Weird that I never thought about that.

I guess the metaphor of a body...well, I know there are parts I would rather do without (on my own flesh), so, likewise. But if I had cancer...something that would kill me if I didn't kill it first...I'd work hard to exorcise myself of it.

Sigh.

Because the "We have no idea in hell how to deal w...

2008-05-20T17:42:00.000-07:00

Because the "We have no idea in hell how to deal with this as a group, so we're done" thing where people get tromped on...well, sucks.

_____________________________

Erin, absolutely. And yet I wonder how many of those people in that situation would have acted more intuitively and automatically at home with their families when bad shit hit the fan, and yet suddenly when they get out into "community" they clam up, go cold, freak out and don't know how to act because we have been so conditioned to think that it's about "the rules" when we're in community.

I was watching TV the other day (it was about the Jehovah's Witnesses, actually, and quite fascinating. made me realise how stereotyped they are and how many things about them I had learnt wrongly). But anyway, there were a few shots of people in a Kingdom Hall meeting, and as the camera panned across the room I'm sitting in my chair yelling, "What the hell are you people doing there, people?" All the groupthink feelings came back to me. I'm a pretty outgoing, dont take bullshit kinda gal, and even I find that kind of thing really very intimidating.

I loved what Glenn said about many of the problems being fear and "Will we like each other?" Because to be honest, I find Christians some of the most loathsome creatures on the planet. I consistently have better, more real conversations with non-Christians than Christians. How sad is that?

(Of course the flipside of that is "Will people like me?" I have been far too vulnerable for the past 7 years to go back into any kindof group thing because there's too much going on in me that I'm not willing to have someone else stomp over, thanks very much.

Which is also really sad. I feel like the Body has cancer, and it needs healing. It needs healing so it can toughen up its skin and love the parts of itself that are just plain ugly.

Kathy - You spoke my heart:"we just eat together &...

2008-05-20T16:45:00.000-07:00

Kathy - You spoke my heart:

"we just eat together & someone facilitates a conversation about something that's on their heart in whatever creative or basic way they want."

You are full of words of hope for me. Thank you.

Hope to see you soon!

Barb - That WAS good. Recovering Christians Anon. ...

2008-05-20T16:42:00.000-07:00

Barb - That WAS good. Recovering Christians Anon. RCA. Christ-Anon.

Glen - I agree. I don't want to give up, but so fa...

2008-05-20T16:40:00.000-07:00

Glen - I agree. I don't want to give up, but so far feel as if I don't have an alternative. Maybe there is something in me that isn't ready or maybe there just hasn't been the right thing. Maybe I'm just being difficult.

hey erin, as you can tell i am a little late into ...

2008-05-20T15:51:00.000-07:00

hey erin, as you can tell i am a little late into the conversation, ha! wow, there's a lot of amazing stuff going on through this post. so cool. i love the thought of a 12 step principled anything because honestly the most amazing underground church in the world is AA. that commmunity gets the desperate need for God & each other like none other. and the only thing they do is have folding chairs in a circle and some good guidelines to share. in all of the communities i have ever been a part of, the "real messy authentic" stuff happened "over there" in special groups for special people who had bigger issues than the rest of the church. the refuge is the first time in my christian journey where it was all integrated into one. it is SO HARD for people looking for neat and tidy or inspirational. the stories are too big, the lack of certainty & simple christian platitudes that relieve others is too tough on them. we are also finding after two years in that actually the only thing we are really good at is community & love so we've started to just let go of all the other things we sort of thought we needed to include in our gatherings "just because" and tried to become a more full expression of just who we are. and the reality is that our wednesday eve house of refuge--an eclectic group of about 20 people--is one of the best parts of my week and really there's not much too it. we just eat together & someone facilitates a conversationa bout something that's on their heart in whatever creative or basic way they want. last week we only answered one question "how has your view of God, yourself in relationship to God, shifted over the years?" woah, the sharing was wild and simple and lingered for me all week. i think the reality for some of us--and this is what i'm sensing from all the other comments--is that our only hope was/is to create something on our own. that it really truly is quite rare but not unattainable. just hard to cultivate and grow and nurture especially when we're so gunshy. my heart for you is when you are ready to experiment to go for it & try to create it, something small, real, deep, powerful for those ready to taste some tangible hope again. the more we talk about how scared we all are, the more safe we feel. i am so bummed i'm not in pdx today. maybe next tuesday! xo kathy
ps: gee whiz, i didn't expect it to be so long....