Comments on Mapless: The De-Gendering of God

Kari - I think as far as pronouns, the Latin becam...

2010-07-20T08:21:44.851-07:00

Kari - I think as far as pronouns, the Latin became "it" because of the role the Catholic Church has played in religion. I think there is FAR more culturally to the various writings and translations than we have given credit to. I don't believe it was ever God's intention for us to take the bible to the letter, but to understand a person and a perspective. People have made the bible be a text book, but it is not.

But then, I believe that while the authors of the bible were "inspired" to record their experiences or the oral traditions that shaped their experiences, I don't think they were miraculously removed from their humanness while doing so. They wrote in the context of their own culture, and we are meant to consider that culture when reading the bible today. I am frustrated by those who think the bible somehow loses it's luster if we do not consider every word to have been specifically chosen by God -- if that were true, we wouldn't have 8427 different translations (an exaggeration, of course). In fact, I tend to think the NT was inspired partly for the purpose of teaching us that everyone is EQUAL. But it's taken us a long time to "get" it.

Yes, I read The Shack, several years ago. It was very helpful to me, especially Papa.

Hey Nate, good to see you - I think I have to agre...

2010-07-20T08:13:00.524-07:00

Hey Nate, good to see you - I think I have to agree with Kari that initially your statement made me cringe. I just don't think that there needs to be a "final decision maker" in marriage. For instance, if I'm out with my girlfriends and we are trying to choose a movie, we don't have any one person who has the "final say". We just discuss until we come to a compromise.

It's the same in my marriage.

However, I totally get what you're saying, and I applaud you for what you shared in your last paragraph.

It's true that historically speaking, men simply were stronger, and therefore it was "clear" to them that women were "weaker" and required mastering and protection.

Erin, more a comment on your post... I wonder if ...

2010-07-18T21:34:11.839-07:00

Erin, more a comment on your post...

I wonder if you went back to the culture @ the time, how that effected the interpretations of the scriptures. You had mentioned that the Hebrew translation of spirit is feminine. so is the Aramaic translation, but since the Greek language has a "neuter" that is what they used. I am not Jewish, so I could be completely off base, but from what I understand, the Jewish religion is matriarchal...?? And, from what I've read, a lot of Messianic Jews consider the Holy Spirit to be feminine. I guess Latin is the translation that would be masculine. I wonder if there was a period in time that the Latin translation became the most widely used. I've not read any older translations of the Bible than the King James version, but that one is definitely masculine...and I know the Catholic church has taught from, well...since forever, the masculine form of the Holy Spirit, and they were VERY influential in translating/deciding what even got IN the "Bible." I also wonder if it's the perspective of the "writer." One scripture that is widely used to insure the masculine form of the holy spirit is in John, during Jesus's baptism, when the dove comes down. Well, John is a male, and it was told from his perspective, so would that have any effect on translation?
Doesn't it make you wonder about the whole "Father/Son" part of the trinity? Doesn't it also make you wonder why ALL of the disciples were male? What's up with that?

Also, have you ever read The Shack? I really enjoyed the way each part of the trinity was portrayed in the book. Completely not the normal :) Love it.

Interesting, Nate...The part where you said, "...

2010-07-18T20:50:37.506-07:00

Interesting, Nate...The part where you said, "It is a partnership, with only me a smidgin above.." makes me cringe :) But, I do note that your last statement sort of makes up for that.

Somewhere in Ephesians it says, "Women respect your husbands, and husbands love your wives. Maybe...a man's language (for the most part) is respect: to love a man is to show him that you respect him, and a woman's language is emotional connection/love: to show a woman love is to emotionally connect with her. Emotionally connecting with her IS respecting her, and respecting a man IS connecting to his emotions and loving him. This makes sense to me. Somehow, though it seems as if "respect" has been misconstrued into "giving power to" or "putting one above," by whoever gets to interpret this stuff for the rest of us, as if "love" is weaker than respect somehow, which in my opinion is absolutely not true.

Loving where all of this is going. Let my throw in...

2010-07-15T22:10:29.130-07:00

Loving where all of this is going. Let my throw in some thoughts.

Men subjugating women, plainly it is because they could. Being physically stronger. The only reason we have the security and freedom we have in the USA is because of the strength of our military. Don't believe it? The Kenyan worker I had brought his Dad to the US for a visit, so Dad could see where he and the grand kids lived. When at his home, dad asks, "How can you make your family safe without a wall?" I Kenya, EVERY home has at least a seven foot wall surrounding it, with glass embedded on top of the wall. If not, someone will come and steal your wife and female children. Only the strong can protect themselves, period. It, unfortunately is the law of the world even now. So women went eagerly to the strong men for safety and security.

That was history, this is now.

Women subject yourself to the men. (not a direct quote) That is the one most put out, and the one most misused. Because the next verse tells men to respect women to the utmost. Do I agree with this philosophy. It works for my family. Sherri and I will discuss all decisions, most she makes because she is in the best position. The rest are made together. If we cannot agree, we have agreed to have me make the final decision. It is a partnership, with only me a small smidgin above, and I NEVER, EVER, hold it over her. She would kill me if I did anyway.

My belief is that women are every bit as good as a man. This pisses women off some times when they ask me to lift something, and get pissed when I show them how to do the job themselves. (retaurant manager remember) But biblically, equal in the eyes of God.

Thanks Kari. It's helpful to know that this ma...

2010-07-14T22:46:05.672-07:00

Thanks Kari. It's helpful to know that this makes sense to others.

I think you hit on the real reason I'm so deeply questioning...that is, when we can actually see the scientific laws of nature, if one takes a biology or chemistry class you can't avoid it or deny it...and yet when we try to carry that same science out to the subject of origins, suddenly some Christians want to make it out to be evil.

It's like, back when Galileo insisted that the solar system was heliocentric and the Catholic church threw him in jail and all kinds of things because it was "clearly in the bible" that the earth is the center of the solar system.

And yet, 99.99% of Christians today would never insist that the solar system is geocentric. We know it's not, we can buy a simple telescope and observe it for ourselves. There is no denying it.

But somehow those same people can't see evolution or other science as being fact if it contradicts how they understand the bible. It just means the science needed to prove these things isn't readily available to every person yet -- like telescopes weren't available in Galileo's time.

But I don't mean to get off on a tangent, either. Haha...

Sue - I have tried on all kinds of pronoun combina...

2010-07-14T22:38:30.077-07:00

Sue - I have tried on all kinds of pronoun combinations, and when it comes down to it, the only ones I don't stumble over are God and Godself. I have tried to use the feminine, but I have not fully decommissioned the maleness of God in my own faith (just due to years and years of having it beat into me, it still seems clumsy to use anything else).

However, I have been able to stop using He and Him entirely (except for when I default out of habit, which I think will take some time).

And yet, when I'm out in nature, you know, I can't see it as anything but female. I just still get stuck before I'm able to call it "God". Sigh, I wish this was simpler.

Yep, Cynthia, I did see Nadia's post (I think ...

2010-07-14T22:30:44.551-07:00

Yep, Cynthia, I did see Nadia's post (I think because you posted it). Yeah, what she said!

That's interesting what you say about men always having had a God they could relate too...I had never thought of that other side of it, only that I never have had a God I could relate to. It easily explains why so many men don't get what all the fuss is about.

"Aside from the obvious problems with believi...

2010-07-14T19:22:07.014-07:00

"Aside from the obvious problems with believing in a literal Eden, a literal Eve, a literal talking serpent, who literally tempted Eve with a fruit that she was not supposed to eat -- there are many other problems with this situation. The reality is the entire story is too complex to successfully defend with any ounce of reason. One must entirely suspend common sense and laws of science in order to literally believe this. A metaphorical understanding can be helpful, but then what is it a metaphor for?"

Seriously this is how I tend to pick apart most of the Bible...I love this! If we believe it all as literal, are we crazy? This stuff doesn't happen now, why not? What is it really saying? What is the metaphor? Why is it metaphor? Who decided that it meant what it "means"? Many of the same people who take the Bible literally do not believe in the actual science they can grasp with their bare hands today.

Sorry! I know this comment is totally off topic. I just really liked your words here :)

I agree, Cynthia, that's what drives me nuts. ...

2010-07-14T19:12:07.524-07:00

I agree, Cynthia, that's what drives me nuts. To be born of the gender that is "not-God", to be told, if you are a Christian, thousands and thousands of times over and over that God is "He", to be part of a culture that is slanted towards men - it strikes me as strange that your friends would say that ... and yet, I like referring to God as Father sometimes; sometimes I *like* to talk to God and call him/her Father. But only if I also get to call her Mother, too :)

Great stuff, Erin. Keeping talking.

Erin, did you see this post by Nadia Bolz-Weber --...

2010-07-14T12:07:52.591-07:00

Erin, did you see this post by Nadia Bolz-Weber -- http://sarcasticlutheran.typepad.com/sarcastic_lutheran/2010/06/redheaded-god.html

I posted this on my facebook and two dear friends who actually are so supportive and encouraging in opening the arms of Christianity to women made the argument that they would hate to see Godde de-gendered, to lose referring to Godde as Father as Jesus did.

Interesting .... In ever hear a woman say something like that, it's only men and I would argue that is because they have always had a "god" that they could relate to, they have never been left out of relating to god.

Reading along with interest ... looking forward to what else you have to say.