Comments on Mapless: The Elephant in the Room

Bob - You're welcome. Nice to meet you.

2007-05-08T19:51:00.000-07:00

Bob - You're welcome. Nice to meet you.

thanks for the power of your voice

2007-05-08T19:30:00.000-07:00

thanks for the power of your voice

Pam - Taking time to visit my humble abode while y...

2007-05-05T14:30:00.000-07:00

Pam - Taking time to visit my humble abode while you're on vacation? Thanks.

Humanly. That's pretty cool. I'll look forward to your post about being "humanly".

You know, he is an easy target - but he's also causing a lot of trouble and so much of what he says is *fightin' words* - that I don't feel it's unfair, as long as we are clear that we are battling against a mentality and not just an individual.

Mike - Amen. I definitely think that's another pro...

2007-05-05T14:27:00.000-07:00

Mike - Amen. I definitely think that's another problematic subject of this person's teaching. The two go hand-in-hand really, the vision of the *strong* man and the *weak* woman. It's really too bad.

I enjoy sharing leadership with my husband, and he would have it no other way.

(Pam peeks her head into the room to see if the cr...

2007-05-05T10:50:00.000-07:00

(Pam peeks her head into the room to see if the crowd has thinned out yet, for she can't stand being in a crowded room...)

Whew. Well that was a doozy, now wasn't it?

And I have to admit, that I have wondered at times if he-who-shall-not-be-mentioned was becoming an unfair target for all forms of sexism that have existed in Christendom since the early years. But after reading all these comments, and quotes, especially from the Men like Gary and Mike and others, well, geesh, unflippinbelievable (except maybe flippin's not the word I was really thinking of ...)

Yeah, he's a piece of work. I wonder what happened to him to create this kind of spiritual chauvinism. Does it trickle down through the A-29 organization?

Argh. Manly for Jesus. Womanly for Jesus. Maybe we need to just focus on being Humanly. Otherwise, most of us are not manly, nor womanly enough to fulfill our supposed gender roles and assignments.

There's a person I know who is trans-gendered. They were born a boy but feel that they really ought to be a girl. So this is how they identify themselves. I don't understand all the issues around gender identity, but what I do know is that God loves people no matter what. Gender, I am convinced, is part of our outward appearance, the part that an Old Testament prophet named Samuel warned us about :

Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.

MD's description of what a "real man" is like (as ...

2007-05-05T07:16:00.000-07:00

MD's description of what a "real man" is like (as in that video) sounds like every jock/jerk guy that I always hated growing up and never wanted to be like. If that's what it means to be masculine, then I'm happy to be a "limp-wristed, soy-latte drinking, chickified dude". His rhetoric, IMHO, should be just as offensive to most men as it is to women. He manages to insult and exclude any men that don't happen to fit his hyper-masculinized, aggressive, over-sexed "manly man" stereotype. If that's what it means to be a man then I'm happy to be "feminized".

Makeesha - Thanks for the ongoing conversation. I ...

2007-05-04T11:14:00.000-07:00

Makeesha - Thanks for the ongoing conversation. I appreciate it.

I love what you said about having to adapt to a mans world, even in the church.

I do see more and more formerly Christian women turning to the "Goddess religions". It's sad - but unfortunately understandable in many ways.

Corrie - I sure appreciate your comments. Where do...

2007-05-04T11:12:00.000-07:00

Corrie - I sure appreciate your comments. Where do you find the time...?

Anyhow thanks for your thoughts - I was thinking that 50% of the population in general is women but you're right.

It saddens me, like you said, that the meek and humble Jesus just isn't manly enough for these guys.

Thanks for the discussion.

corrie - that's what I find so bizarre about this ...

2007-05-04T11:01:00.000-07:00

corrie - that's what I find so bizarre about this whole topic. here's what i'm hearing:

the church is too feminized
we have emasculated Christ
therefore we need to make the church more "manly"

But here's the problem - in most of the church, women are attenders at a higher percentage but not represented in leadership. So where exactly is this feminization coming from?

As it is women have had to adapt to a "man's world" even in the church. We have had to accept being led by men, counseled by men, told what to do by men. We've had to hear sermons from a man's perspective EVERY SINGLE WEEK OF OUR LIVES..which for me has been 28 years.

And NOW they want to make the church further masculine? which, by the way means more colonial and more "western macho american masculine". Why is it that we're supposed to change for the men at the expense of women?

women everywhere are turning to religions that honor the feminine, that respect the leadership and fully HUMAN place of women in society. This should concern the church universal.

"I've had posts on my blog from women from his chu...

2007-05-04T08:47:00.000-07:00

"I've had posts on my blog from women from his church who claim that he loves and respects women."

Gary,

Yeah, I just feel the "love" when I read those quotes you posted! ;-)

The whole ironic thing is that I am still pretty firmly on the "complementarian" side of things but those quotes truly show what is in the heart of this man and his ATTITUDE towards women.

If I hear one more time a bad church being described as "feminized", I may just have to "man up" and tell someone to "PARK IT!!!"

And, the imagery of a gun being cocked is interesting. I wonder if he considers women as soldiers, too? Is that imagery in the Bible only directed at men? Which parts of the Bible and on living the Christian life apply only to men? I am sure it is scary to some guys to think of women locking and loading! LOL

"His beliefs are downright and genetically abusive...

2007-05-04T08:35:00.000-07:00

"His beliefs are downright and genetically abusive to 50% of the population; this isn't just a theological debate, it's a human rights issue."

Lily,

Actually, that would be 60% of the population, if we are speaking about the Church. :-) And the other 40% being "chickified dudes" if you go by what this unnamed pastor says about the men in churches.

Do men realize how insulting it is for a woman to hear anything deficient called "feminized"? Think about it. Isn't it a direct insult to God? If anything, they really need to come up with another euphemism for a weak and ineffective church. Women are neither weak or ineffective.

The "Ultimate Fighting Jesus" gospel is totally off balance. I do have to wonder why so many women "got" Jesus and the men didn't? I think this pastor has recreated Jesus in his own image and now he expects us to worship his idol with him.

Yes, Jesus is strong and He is Victorious over all but the "Hippie Jesus in a dress drinking herbal tea" comes very close, imho, to mocking the essence of Jesus as gentle, meek, humble. After all, that is why many people fell away because he was not the "Gun-toting Rambo Jesus" that this unnamed pastor would like us to believe He was.

In that video, it was said that men need a Jesus they can worship and he tells them to give these young men that version of Jesus. Well, that is idolatry. Jesus is a complete package. It seems that part of Jesus' true essence is repulsive to him and his manhood. That part is too "femmy". Where do we see the Jesus this pastor preaches about in the Gospels? What will these young men do when they have to read through the gospels and what they have been told by this pastor doesn't jive with what they are reading?

Joy - I am so thankful for my blog friends - they ...

2007-05-04T07:16:00.000-07:00

Joy - I am so thankful for my blog friends - they have meant the world to me in my journey - it's also so much fun to make new friends like you and Cynthia and Makeesha - I so appreciate that.

It is an important issue and I'm glad people like you and I are finding our voices.

Gary - It's just like you said in an earlier post ...

2007-05-04T07:05:00.000-07:00

Gary - It's just like you said in an earlier post - and I seconded it - we find these seemingly *great* churches and then find out they have an acts 29 mentality. *Sigh*.

It's interesting to me - in my experience - the church I'm detoxing from doesn't *seem* like that conservative of a denomination - and truthfully they even teach equality, but once you become immersed there, once you get plugged into leadership, you realize how bad things really are - and that what is *taught* isn't what is really *practiced*.

Cynthia - This post exceeds my comment record by m...

2007-05-04T07:00:00.000-07:00

Cynthia - This post exceeds my comment record by more than double and I so appreciate that people feel safe enough to talk about it here.

This teaching very nearly destroyed my marriage as well. it wasn't until I was so broken that I saw leaving my husband as my only option to retain an ounce of my sanity that things began to change in me.

The paragraph where you said you tried to force yourself into roles - LOL that is EXACTLY us. Every word of it.

I bless you guys as you work your way out of this unhealthy teaching. The process has made our marriage 100% better than it ever was before.

Thanks for sharing.

Lily,

Thanks for keeping the conversation o...

2007-05-04T06:50:00.000-07:00

Lily,

Thanks for keeping the conversation open.

I posted on M*** D*** on my blog and used his name and was immediately picked up by a technorati spider. I went back and edited it, because I got a comment from someone who I KNOW had to be from you know where.... LOL

Anyway,

I am finding so many voices here... that I have come across time and time again. It seems like a community when you see their names! I love it!

Lily, I'm with you... It is well and good enough for the guys who say, "I don't agree with his stand on ____, but over all he's an ok guy." But this is basically condoning his mindset.

I am so thankful for the MEN you have commenting in here!

I ignored this particular incident for a while, but I realize that there are people who NEED to hear our voices, so they can find their own. Women and men who are caught up in it, but feel trapped and want out.

It was in this type of forum that I was able to find my voice in the emerging church community. It was hearing others and seeing that I wasn't alone and wasn't crazy.

I just had a conversation with Cynthia, a commenter here, (we are IRLBFF) and we still have the occasion when we think, Am I making all this up? Am I making something out of nothing?

So, thanks for those who are speaking out. I think it brings healing in our own lives for us to identify toxins in our own lives and it brings healing to others as they see that they are not alone in their journey.

Not that many years ago, before my own spiritual i...

2007-05-04T05:17:00.000-07:00

Not that many years ago, before my own spiritual implosion, I joined a church with similar beliefs. They also were growing rapidly, from 150 to 500 in a year. I loved their passion, their music, and the strength, clarity, and delivery of the preaching. And they had such a vision for reaching the community. Clearly it was working.

I had been attending a membership class, just to find out more. My wife had gone to the first class. I went to the second one alone. At the conclusion of the class I joined.

I went home and told my wife. It was then that I learned that she was not terribly pleased with my decision, to say the least. She asked if I had noticed that women were not allowed in leadership? What did that say about her? And what about her baptism? She was baptized as an infant and would have to be rebaptized for them to recognize it. She felt this was unnecessary and a repudiation of her parents' faith. She did not mention that this pastor was friends with Jack MacArthur (shudder). I listened, recognized that I had made a mistake, and we immediately stopped attending that church.

My theology has changed a great deal since then. But I had to be broken first. At the time I had no idea that that was coming soon. Thank God I crashed and burned and that He was there to gradually pick up the pieces.

BTW, the church that I mentioned at the beginning of these comments, well it joined another church and then sort of died. I have no idea as to where the pastor is now. Perhaps he went down to California to be with his friend, MacArthur.

One other thing. During that time I became good friends with the worship leader. He had six grammy awards and was a very gifted man. We almost went into business together. Thank God that didn't work out. He had graduated from Bob Jones University and looked back on that education as far too conservative. I guess felt that dropping racism but maintaining chauvinism was progress.

Makeesha, your comments here are so true, but SO f...

2007-05-04T05:08:00.000-07:00

Makeesha, your comments here are so true, but SO frustrating . . . it is a lose lose situation for women and the men that support, as Rob Horton has called it, restorative justice for women.

Lily,if you are late coming into the game, so a I! Because of the rampant divorce culture in my family, I was seeking another way. I became prey to this teaching ... THIS teaching is exactly what I was immersed in for years. It very nearly destroyed me and my marriage.

For years, my husband and I tried to force ourselves into those roles and it did NOT work. Wait, honestly, it was me ... trying to force myself into that "Titus 2 role" and him into that "male leadership role". It just left me with guilt, guilt, guilt all the time. Left my husband quite frustrated because he has always considered us as equals, never saw the need for him to be the "lord of our household"

Now we are detoxing from all of those years. I have described it as tearing down the house, sifting through the rubble, discarding the toxic waste and searching for the treasures that we want to hold onto.

It has been a difficult process. We are only now on the first baby steps of understanding how our marriage can be different, how it can offer us the freedom of being equal partners.

Makeesha - Thanks for your comments!

I know...

2007-05-03T22:45:00.000-07:00

Makeesha - Thanks for your comments!

I know so many women leaders have been fighting for this for ages - and in recent months I have really enjoyed hearing women like Lisa Domke speak on the subject. In some ways I feel really late to the game. But I'm recovering from being brainwashed most of my adult life that a *good christian woman* is *just so* and *not this* - if you know what I mean - and really what I've experienced was minor compared to the person in question - most of what I was taught was to help us ladies feel more comfortable and compliant about our *role* - and we were provided ample separate-but-equal opportunities in the church - but there still was no question about what our *place* was. I have just in the last two years or so had it dawn on me that this is NOT Ok.

Sorry - off on a tangent there...

I know what you mean about harry potter LOL...

My husband, too...you know when we married (I married into a very conservative traditional christian family and a long line of preachers) I conformed to the *standards* in order to be acceptable to the OTHER WOMEN (believe me, I had heard them talk about women behind their backs for suck little and stupid *infractions* and I didn't want that to be me) But of course, they were catty and opinionated about the place of a woman because they were given no other choice by their men.

About two years ago when I had my meltdown - one thing I was fighting against was this image of a *godly woman* which was so really NOT me. As I began to detox from the brainwashing - I told my husband "I'm sorry I'm not able to be a godly woman like your mom. I was sorry I've failed to be the woman you wanted me to be."

You know what he said?

"What do you mean? I NEVER wanted you to be like my mom - I thought YOU wanted to be like her. I want you to be like you were when we met - VERY MUCH NOT like my mom. I love that you have opinions and are strong and a little wild!"

Funny what 13 years of miscommunication can do.

But in any case he would be considered feminized (or I can think of another less pg-13 word). It's really sad.

Anyhow thanks for the conversation!

I also want to emphasize that this teaching is ext...

2007-05-03T22:22:00.000-07:00

I also want to emphasize that this teaching is extremely damaging and offensive to men too.

My husband is far more Christ like than the man of whom you speak (I feel like a harry potter book...he who must not be named hehe) but he would characterize my husband as one of those "limp wristed hippies". I find this extremely offensive and reprehensible to suggest that i'm a strong woman because my husband is a pansy.

The problem though is very similar to the catch 22 we find ourselves in as women in this conversation. If men like my husband speak out loudly against his stereotypically american macho ideal, they're tossed aside and labeled and dismissed.

It's extremely disturbing to me that his "elders" are brainwashed so much that they don't hold him accountable for his words and behavior and that there isn't anyone around prophetic enough to judge the situation as extremely volatile.

most men like him think they put women on a pedest...

2007-05-03T22:17:00.000-07:00

most men like him think they put women on a pedestal..twisted demon logic if you ask me. It makes me think back to when slave owners bragged about how well they treated their slaves because if they didn't, they wouldn't be well enough to do the work.

Hey Gary - Thanks so much for commenting on this -...

2007-05-03T22:11:00.000-07:00

Hey Gary - Thanks so much for commenting on this - I was hoping you would. Some of the reason I have come to feel so strongly about this issue is due to stuff you've written about it.

Thanks for sharing the your thoughts and the quotes. I am sad to think his church is growing so fast - hopefully it will implode before something really goes wrong.

I worry about the women like the ones you mentioned who are being harmed by this teaching. I pray for them on a regular basis.

Preach it sister! The unnamed one and his noxious ...

2007-05-03T21:57:00.000-07:00

Preach it sister! The unnamed one and his noxious teaching is dangerous. Sadly, his church is the largest, and fastest growing church in my state, and he's just half an hour from my house.

Even though he was relieved of his editorial status in a local paper, the media still considers him to be just another Christian. They think most of us are just like him.

He indoctrinates vulnerable people, just coming to faith in Christ. Many of them have come out of very dysfunctional lives, and he provides structure and a sense of family. They are open to his world where chauvinism is the norm. He cleverly props up these doctrines with out-of-context proof-texts.

It may never come to a Kool-aid situation, but this man has unfettered power. It appears that he has an unfettered ego, and often, an unfettered mouth.

If he views women being of value primarily to relieve mens' sexual tension and as reproductive machines, then perhaps it's only a matter of time before his low view of women and his power corrupts his judgment, so that he legally crosses the line with a women.

Of course, he would probably strongly disagree with my characterization of his teaching, saying that he puts women on a pedestal. But he has clearly taught these things:

- "women will be saved by going back to that role that God has for them."

- "There is no occasion where women led a society and were its heads and the men complied and followed. ... It's a matter of Biblical creation."

- "No woman wants a man to treat her like another man because if we do, you cry."

- "some women think they can do everything on their own and that if men sit by idly like cowards because they don't want to get into with with their hot-headed, emotional, wives, eventually the women will take over the church, and then the church will go to hell."

- "Husbands are responsible to ensure that their wives are not ungodly and acting in sinful and disruptive ways in the church."

I've had posts on my blog from women from his church who claim that he loves and respects women. But that's if those women adhere to the roles that he proscribes for them.

... not that I'm afraid to get hits from people wh...

2007-05-03T19:26:00.000-07:00

... not that I'm afraid to get hits from people who disagree with me, I'm just trying to avoid flames and shouting matches.

TL - Spot on. I just don't want to name him in my ...

2007-05-03T19:25:00.000-07:00

TL - Spot on. I just don't want to name him in my post because that drives hits that I don't necessarily want; and I don't want to advertise for him, either.

Thanks for commenting. ((Hug))

I hear what you are saying, Lily. I think I know ...

2007-05-03T18:58:00.000-07:00

I hear what you are saying, Lily. I think I know which leader you are referring to. Initials MD?

Comments on Mapless: The Elephant in the Room

Bob - You're welcome. Nice to meet you.

thanks for the power of your voice

Pam - Taking time to visit my humble abode while y...

Mike - Amen. I definitely think that's another pro...

(Pam peeks her head into the room to see if the cr...

MD's description of what a "real man" is like (as ...

Makeesha - Thanks for the ongoing conversation. I ...

Corrie - I sure appreciate your comments. Where do...

corrie - that's what I find so bizarre about this ...

"I've had posts on my blog from women from his chu...

"His beliefs are downright and genetically abusive...

Joy - I am so thankful for my blog friends - they ...

Gary - It's just like you said in an earlier post ...

Cynthia - This post exceeds my comment record by m...

Lily,Thanks for keeping the conversation o...

Not that many years ago, before my own spiritual i...

Makeesha, your comments here are so true, but SO f...

Makeesha - Thanks for your comments!I know...

I also want to emphasize that this teaching is ext...

most men like him think they put women on a pedest...

Hey Gary - Thanks so much for commenting on this -...

Preach it sister! The unnamed one and his noxious ...

... not that I'm afraid to get hits from people wh...

TL - Spot on. I just don't want to name him in my ...

I hear what you are saying, Lily. I think I know ...

Lily,

Thanks for keeping the conversation o...

Makeesha - Thanks for your comments!

I know...