Comments on Mapless: Brainwashed (The Evil of Being Female, Part 2)

PrairieNymph - I have asked myself the same questi...

2010-07-28T12:01:50.199-07:00

PrairieNymph - I have asked myself the same question. I don't want gender issues to become a question of either submit or leave the faith...I know many people are working for this cause, but what should women do in the interim? I don't know.

Thanks for commenting!

ahh. I remember debating in high school about this...

2010-07-27T15:53:19.792-07:00

ahh.
I remember debating in high school about this very subject. And I was brainwashed. I even vowed to obey my husband in my wedding vows.
I did almost commit suicide over despair at being female in a group where lip service was given to loving women but it was clear they had little value. Benevolent sexism?
I still struggle. Leaving Christianity is helping a lot. But these women fear losing God. And if God is male (in practice, not preached) and prescribed male headship...
How do we unveil these women without tearing apart their faith?

Hi Crystal - Sometimes I think it's like wakin...

2010-07-24T07:02:56.759-07:00

Hi Crystal - Sometimes I think it's like waking up from a bad dream. Suddenly, for whatever reason, we open our eyes one day and see what has been done to women in the church. And then the things we have accepted for years or decades make us angry at what we were blind to for so long. At least that was my experience, and if you liked DDD, it's probably been your experience too.

I'm glad of that strides that are being made against this sort of thing. Now all we need is for the world's largest religious body to see it. I'm not holding my breath.

Hi Kari - I must have missed your comment. Sorry! ...

2010-07-24T07:00:10.598-07:00

Hi Kari - I must have missed your comment. Sorry!

I think that a big problem is the idea, wherever it came from, that the bible is not only the word of God, it is ALL of God. One denomination I have experienced believes in the bible alone as the only thing we need to know God, to live in the world, and to solve all our problems. Any experience of "God" that does not come from reading the bible is evil. Crazy!

Keep it coming. I, too, read DDD and it changed m...

2010-07-24T06:29:01.779-07:00

Keep it coming. I, too, read DDD and it changed my life and the way I looked at "church" and "religion" and it led to me leaving the church I had attended for 20+ years. Like Sue's husband in the book, my husband is struggling to understand where I am coming from on occasion but he understands my concerns and is very supportive. Like Kari's husband, my spouse also beleves that the oppression of women and girls is an injustice and speaks out against it when he sees it.

Erin, I don't think I believe wives are suppos...

2010-07-13T11:52:51.377-07:00

Erin, I don't think I believe wives are supposed to be submissive in the way that is described here. One would be a lot more willing to trust and give control over to someone whose aim is to love his wife as much as God loves her. I don't think it was meant to be any other way...sort of a cycle, a circle, if you will (with, no doubt a lot of mistakes in between and a lot of forgiveness, as, yes we are all human and imperfect).

I also believe that even IF the Bible IS the true word of God, that you can't operate on that alone...just like what you said,

"I think when someone takes the bible seriously, but doesn't stop and look around and see the wind in the trees, well, that is a lopsided experience of God. The world is God's artistry!"

I know that I am very lucky to be married to a man who does believe that the oppression of women is an injustice, and he does stand up to that kind of injustice out loud (and some times I do wish he would shut up!), but in my heart, it makes me respect him so much much much more.

Hey Barbara -- I know you are overwhelmed, but I m...

2010-07-12T20:35:52.133-07:00

Hey Barbara -- I know you are overwhelmed, but I miss connecting with you. Drop me a line one of these days!

And, thank you!

Haha I love you Sue for saying what you think! I ...

2010-07-12T20:33:54.360-07:00

Haha I love you Sue for saying what you think! I quite thoroughly agree!

I think the ability to hear the "word" in the trees is directly related to understanding the place of the bible (in my opinion on a shelf collecting dust, but that's an aside), that it not be elevated to God itself, but considered to be a tool by which to know God...which the entirety of the world is, as well. I think when someone takes the bible seriously, but doesn't stop and look around and see the wind in the trees, well, that is a lopsided experience of God. The world is God's artistry!

Hi Kari! That sounds like an interesting book. I w...

2010-07-12T20:30:35.156-07:00

Hi Kari! That sounds like an interesting book. I wouldn't mind knowing the title.

I think the mandate for men to love their wives as Chris loves the church is an interesting one, because for one, men are human and unable to actually do that no matter how they try, and two, most of them forget that when they are asking their wives to be submissive. They forget they are to submit to Christ in every way they ask their wives to submit to them. But then, I think the reality of the mandate is that the men are NOT capable of that, and to remind them that just the same, their wives will fail at any expectation to be submissive. As well, doesn't it say to submit one to another, for wives and husbands? I don't see much of that, either.

Of course, all that is assuming a person believes wives are to be submissive...which I don't. It's interesting how you say that if men are to love their wives as Christ loves the church, then they should stand up to injustices done to their wives. I'd never really thought of that, and on one level, it's good, but then, those same men would have to believe that the oppression of women WAS an injustice, which many of them do not.

Interesting thoughts!

I agree with you and the comments above! It was s...

2010-07-12T19:48:13.843-07:00

I agree with you and the comments above! It was so nice to finally get over and read some Erin!

"If you want to argue about God's word be...

2010-07-12T03:38:50.375-07:00

"If you want to argue about God's word being law, I would argue that you must first read the bible in it's original languages and in it's original culture and context before deciding what is God's law and what is not."

++++++++

Indeed. And furthermore, the bible never even itself refers to itself as God's Word anyway, in the way that insane modern Christians need to refer to it for their own security requirements, in their stupid, childish and naive insistence that the Bible was slapped down in Cincinatti in 1893 because contextualising is all too hard.

Makes you wonder, doesn't it, if the fundies have ever heard anything remotely resembling "God's word" for themselves, firsthand, without someone else telling them. Ever heard it whistle through the trees, ever sensed it in their own hearts? If so, they would KNOW that this is patent bullshit, evil, ridiculous pathetic human beings abdicated from their own intellects and their own hearts. It infuriates me beyond description.

Erin, it makes my physically ill as well. There i...

2010-07-11T05:16:49.322-07:00

Erin, it makes my physically ill as well. There is a man :) who wrote a book about how the King James version of the Bible was actually written in a way intended to lower women to beneath men. I wish I could remember who it was and what it was called, but I know it helped my aunt out a great deal in going through some things. I'll ask her ad get back to you. Although I'm not really sure where I'm at with understanding who wrote the Bible and if it's translations are actually "inspired" by God himself, one thing that has continued to strike me (and I saw this at a wedding last weekend) was the mandate for a man to love his wife as Christ loves the church. So...if this were to be the case, I would hope that husbands everywhere would be standing up to the injustices calculated by men who want power perversion, but I just don't see this happening often. To give you some hope, one of the reasons we go to the church we go to is because women hold positions of leadership there, and preach. I had never experienced this before, and I absolutely love it.

Barry - It makes me physically ill. Precisely why ...

2010-07-10T16:58:35.685-07:00

Barry - It makes me physically ill. Precisely why I can't be a party to such sickness anymore.

The women who condone it are either a) brainwashed or b) trapped. Or both. The biggest problem is men (not "men" in general, but the specific men who endorse this sort of belief) have to want to see change and advocate that change for their wives before anything will happen. And I'm not holding my breath.

It is so sickening to see what some people will do...

2010-07-10T16:21:46.472-07:00

It is so sickening to see what some people will do using the Bible as justification.

"God said it, I believe it ... now bend over, wife!"

It's even more terrible that there are actually women who condone that sort of thing too.

Hey Manuela! Honestly, it's true. Babies grow ...

2010-07-10T12:43:45.046-07:00

Hey Manuela! Honestly, it's true. Babies grow inside of us, yes, but there shouldn't be any other differences. :)

Shelly - I couldn't agree more. I would love i...

2010-07-10T12:42:36.132-07:00

Shelly - I couldn't agree more. I would love it if this truth actually found it's way into the hearts of some congregations - because it would solve a lot of issues.

Sometimes I wonder if this isn't outlining a societal evolution of sorts. It's been millenia since the barriers between Jew and Greek were broken. More recently, the issue of slavery has found it's way out of most of the world (or at least, we no longer condone it, it does happen, but it's criminal) -- and changes in the last 100 years would lead me to believe we are working our way out of gender inequality. One could hope.

"However, any belief that tells a woman that ...

2010-07-10T00:30:09.605-07:00

"However, any belief that tells a woman that she is in any way "less than" a man - less qualified to lead, to make decisions, or to be independent - is evil."
Amen, can't wait for part three...

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neithe...

2010-07-09T14:56:24.037-07:00
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal. 3:28, NASB)

That verse, to me, pretty much throws the whole gender inequality thing, especially in regards to leadership roles in the church, out the window. Not to mention there are several examples of women in the Bible who kicked serious ass. :)