tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post3477585671244025124..comments2007-07-24T22:28:43.278-07:00Erinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01067954787472463337noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-64970843187882013622007-07-24T22:28:00.000-07:002007-07-24T22:28:00.000-07:00LOL Rhonda - I'll put you on the map! The map of the unconvinced....Erinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01067954787472463337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-65595813860407963032007-07-24T20:21:00.000-07:002007-07-24T20:21:00.000-07:00not convinced in Wisconsin.Rhondahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18352928421716515304noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-9688686870841859042007-07-21T15:05:00.000-07:002007-07-21T15:05:00.000-07:00Nate - I struggle with that a lot - the irony of judging the church for judging me. People call me on that all the time and I'm not sure how to reconcile it.Erinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01067954787472463337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-63163042542631715662007-07-21T09:45:00.000-07:002007-07-21T09:45:00.000-07:00Holy Crap Jon, Dictionary is right. Church needs to change, into what it once was. Believers meeting together everyday and sharing with one another. I feel led to start something cyberly, but don't know how to keep it from getting out of control. Anyway, I agree community is helpful, but also harmful. Judging is at the crux of it I think. We get sick of all of the judging that happens, and what that judging makes us do that we don't feel comforatable with. Paul and James mentioned many times, do not Judge, and yet we do. Will we never learn. Because I judge that church that judges me. Ironic.Natehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11286219824281974297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-23204880593686028882007-07-20T18:01:00.000-07:002007-07-20T18:01:00.000-07:00Oh my GOSH - Debbie left a comment!<BR/><BR/>Peeps, let me introduce you to Debbie - one of my bestest IRL friends and my favorite coffee date.<BR/><BR/>I think when we hang out together (you and I)that is enough fellowship for us not to wither. At least for me. Two or more, right?<BR/><BR/>I probably won't be painting much tomorrow but there will be other things to do. You're welcome to come over, I won't put you to work unless you want to.Erinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01067954787472463337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-71719666433464012632007-07-20T17:57:00.000-07:002007-07-20T17:57:00.000-07:00Jon - Sorry I didn't reply sooner - been busy with home improvement!<BR/><BR/>I agree with what you say. It's interesting how there are more and more of us who are figuring this stuff out. Somebody recently said on sombody's blog - I don't remember where or who - I'm too brain dead...(maybe Sonja or Grace or Bro Maynard?) that "going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than being in a garage makes you a car".<BR/><BR/>I think sometimes what is in a garage is a car. Sometimes it's not.Erinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01067954787472463337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-7624600160619836832007-07-20T14:59:00.000-07:002007-07-20T14:59:00.000-07:00Hi Erin,<BR/>I thought each of us is the church so why does there have to be 4 - 5 people to be the church? You know my take on the church. I need the fellowship with other believers or I wither. And no, it does not have to be in a church building but where else am I going to go so I don't wither?<BR/>Will you still be painting tomorrow? I can help in the morning. We could drink coffee and paint at the same time. <BR/>DebbieDebbiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05039943768727370224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-83464025968527735172007-07-18T09:26:00.000-07:002007-07-18T09:26:00.000-07:00i'll try to keep this shorter than an unabridged dictionary...<BR/><BR/>i agree that people need each other. and i do agree that people being able to connect with other people is one of the points of the cross. however, i think where i part company with him is what we call "church." and i think this is your problem as well.<BR/><BR/>though many would disagree, i consider these contacts with one another in the blog-o-sphere to be no less real than those experienced in a normal "church". and i think this is okay. it can be a place where we receive the spiritual and emotional nurturing that we need. yet, it lacks the physical aspect. for example, i could not help you with any sort of emergency at your home. the distance is too great. <BR/><BR/>and in this, i agree with him. maybe, after a season, it is time for you to start your own gathering. and this, if i read you right, erin, is what is so frightening. because "what is church?" feeling that heaviness about having to put on all those old rules and laws that were just so wonderfully shucked...having to put on old chains that were shed with joy...just in order to "be church". and to be made to feel like you HAVE to be that or be a "bad christian." grrrr.<BR/><BR/>and this is where i, for myself, am beginning to believe that i was put out of the organized church for a reason. i don't think that "doing church" has any sort of rules attached to it. i think it can be whatever you want it to be regardless of what paul, peter, james, or john had to say on the subject. very controversial to say the least, but it is truly what i think and feel right now. they had their shot. they created gatherings and made the rules for them... but now it is our time. we are the ones who are here and there are MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY gatherings built upon (or trying to be built upon) the convictions of these men.<BR/><BR/>the reality, however, is that such gatherings did not work for me, were not healthy for me, and ultimately brought about bondage and death rather than light and life. and i know i am not alone. there are some people out there as well who need something else... and maybe i have been called out to help them (and myself) find that together. <BR/><BR/>so to answer your question <EM>"MUST a gathering include those elements in order to be *church*?"</EM> i say, "no. no they do not." and i say this because it is the only thing that brings me peace. and i have seen this principle at work first hand. when i first came out from under "church" i simply began to have people over to my house to party and play games and connect and laugh and share love and joy with one another. and those gatherings grew. it was something people looked forward to and wanted to bring their friends to. and i had to ask myself, "why not? why can't this be church? why does church have to include a bunch of things that people don't care about and have no passion for? why must church contain a lot of dead ritual in order to be church?" if interested, you can see some posts about my experiences <A HREF="http://somethingelsejtp.blogspot.com/2006_03_01_archive.html" REL="nofollow">here.</A> (unfortunately the community was destroyed in its infancy as a result of the mental and spiritual attacks of my former "church" leaders. join with me in praying for its renewal!)<BR/><BR/>if you're willing to open yourself up to the idea, church can be whatever you want it to be. that thought, however, will most certainly put you in the line of fire. the idea that church is not traditions kept but lives of passion and love and peace and joy lived and shared is exactly the idea that got jesus and his friends killed by those who would disagree. and the climate is much the same again. so be careful.<BR/><BR/>but if you feel your heart pulling you in that direction, i say go for it. "sharing christ" is not so much, in my mind, trying to make people see your point of view, or tyring to convert them to anything. if it is true that <STRONG>"i no longer live but it is christ who lives in me"</STRONG> then when i share myself and who i have become and who i am becoming with others, then i am sharing christ. and this can be done by helping someone change a flat tire, going out to dinner, playing a game, babysitting for a single mother, on and on and on.<BR/><BR/> the rituals need not apply.jONhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16955771465084412855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-33109645992318557862007-07-17T20:39:00.000-07:002007-07-17T20:39:00.000-07:00Cindy - Thanks for your thoughts on this. <BR/><BR/>I agree about ekklesia. That's the word - but it's original intent was so simple and beautiful. We've turned it into something complex and troublesome.<BR/><BR/>LOL the Pope.Erinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01067954787472463337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-7122994787011783902007-07-17T19:18:00.000-07:002007-07-17T19:18:00.000-07:00now- about bob's article. it also struck me as uncharacteristically defensive- or maybe impatient. <BR/><BR/>i think overall his views are more even handed than that one article would indicate.<BR/><BR/>As for the def. of church. Eccelsia in the NT really just refers to groups of Christians who met together. Even Paul, though specific about how to treat one another in community, didn't fully attempt to define it. I think it was pretty obvious to them what it was. <BR/><BR/>S. Zodhiates writes that the term ecclesia was originally applied to the Christians to diferentiate them from the synagogue, the community of Jews.<BR/><BR/>I think that while we need to retain many of our traditions that are beautiful and beneficial, one tradition we can do without is the line-in-the-sand drawing some do- this is church, this isn't. My apologies, of course, to the pope. ;-)Cindyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16015836604614281485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-39794087796338294052007-07-17T19:09:00.000-07:002007-07-17T19:09:00.000-07:00Cindy - Yes it's too late to recommend the black - but it's turning out fine - it's just that every little mistake shows. Thanks for the good-intentioned advice. I appreciate it.Erinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01067954787472463337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-10739649531969106922007-07-17T18:54:00.000-07:002007-07-17T18:54:00.000-07:00so you moved in with a toddler and an infant? or thereabouts?<BR/>i don't think i'd be too hard on myself!Cindyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16015836604614281485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-71587808904822367902007-07-17T18:42:00.000-07:002007-07-17T18:42:00.000-07:00hey erin. i'm guessing it would be too late to pass on my recently gained knowledge that red walls should be primed with black first? my sister had a terrible time with a red bathroom- 4 or 5 coats and it still wasn't enough, when someone finally said, "oh you should prime with black under red."<BR/><BR/>i hope your red goes better than hers did!Cindyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16015836604614281485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-16430563352425794092007-07-17T13:16:00.000-07:002007-07-17T13:16:00.000-07:00Barbara - Thanks for taking your lunch break to visit me!<BR/><BR/>Serving the poor is something many churches have failed at. At least as a percentage of their budget. That drives me nuts.<BR/><BR/>I don't deny that there are benefits to community and I sometimes miss it. One day...Erinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01067954787472463337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-17204421161178783542007-07-17T13:13:00.000-07:002007-07-17T13:13:00.000-07:00Wil - Welcome. Um - yeah I don't think I have ever specifically answered that except here and there in various posts. <BR/><BR/>In truth, I'm very much an amalgam. Lutheran early childhood, few years of Lutheran school, Baptist growing up, a few years of sporadic mass attendence, charismatic teen years until marriage, a few years in a conservative cessationist church, and charismatic again until present.<BR/><BR/>Present day I consider myself to be "recovering" charismatic - in other words, not opposed to charismatic gifts, but defiant of the ridiculous excesses of the last two decades.<BR/><BR/>As far as ministry - that's a long story. I am currently in exile from a charismatic church where I served heavily in children's, women's, prayer, prophetic, and retreat ministries at various times. Yeah. Total burn-out.Erinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01067954787472463337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-20941826224526984162007-07-17T13:05:00.000-07:002007-07-17T13:05:00.000-07:00Sonja - Wow, thanks for the compliment but I don't consider my writing to be of the same high caliber as Grace ;-) After all, I use bad words.<BR/><BR/>Seriously, maybe. We'll see.<BR/><BR/>I agree with you about church. Like Donna said - her and I need to have coffee so we ca have church. <BR/><BR/>Would love to have church with you some day. Alas, maybe only on Talk or Chat.Erinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01067954787472463337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-17705192175836313832007-07-17T13:01:00.000-07:002007-07-17T13:01:00.000-07:00My Anonymous Husband - You're welcome. I think I finally became a little tired of the institutional white.Erinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01067954787472463337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-61241548080375837072007-07-17T12:41:00.000-07:002007-07-17T12:41:00.000-07:00Hi Erin, I'm trying to catch up on blogs on my lunch break.<BR/><BR/>I didn't have time to check out Bob's post but am interested to read it. In his definition of church he mentioned serving the poor together, many "big" churches don't even do that.<BR/><BR/>I have mixed feelings on the issue of church. I don't think we HAVE to go to church but I do see the benefit of community. Too tired to think beyond this :)Barbara (aka Layla)http://www.blogger.com/profile/11100008292699584336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-39823224837401996122007-07-17T12:26:00.000-07:002007-07-17T12:26:00.000-07:00Hi Erin,<BR/><BR/>I just happened upon your blog by random chance, and I find it interesting, coming from a mix of conservative- moderate Catholicism and Evangelical influences myself.<BR/><BR/>Forgive me if it is posted somewhere on the blog and I haven't found it, but what have been your formative church influences (i.e., what tradition(s), ministries, etc. etc.)?Wilhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17415305368522306776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-46793655840059640092007-07-17T11:47:00.000-07:002007-07-17T11:47:00.000-07:00Erin ... I loved this post ... it's a great companion piece to Grace's on the same subject. You two ought to consider co-authoring something sometime. ;-)<BR/><BR/>I have NOT read Bob's piece yet and need to. I liked his description of what a church could be, but wondered at his numbers ... why does it need to be 5 - 10? I seem to remember Jesus saying something about whereever 2 or 3 are gathered in His name He'd be there ... but maybe I'm picking nits.<BR/><BR/>Good luck with your house painting. I'm going to join the group who is aghast at your goal ... I'm aiming to paint the guest room this summer. Like you we've lived here almost 6 years now (okay not 9) and are still in builders white (from the previous owners) except for the kids' rooms. I NEED color!!!sonjahttp://www.calacirian.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-39374977862040073962007-07-17T10:18:00.000-07:002007-07-17T10:18:00.000-07:00The paint looks great! Thanks for doing that while the boys and I are at the race track. I kinda enjoy painting, but I wasn't looking forward to it after the bathroom took so long to do and I've got skateboards to build.<BR/>Word!<BR/><BR/>PS I requested my blogger password, but aracnet must think it's spam 'cause it didn't show up in my e-mail. I guess I'll just keep using anonymous for now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-19751274752979089512007-07-17T10:01:00.000-07:002007-07-17T10:01:00.000-07:00Donna - Wanna come help?<BR/><BR/>Lol I'm doing a shade of red, too...unforgiving bastard of a color it is. What was I thinking?<BR/><BR/>Yes we do need to get together. Sigh.Erinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01067954787472463337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-46470628271005083692007-07-17T09:01:00.000-07:002007-07-17T09:01:00.000-07:00Painting...I did that last week!! One room...it will be years before I forget how much I dislike doing it before I tackle another room!!! I wasn't happy with the color (red-not dark enough for me) but had a f@#@ it attitude & it will be what it is for a very long time!!! :)<BR/><BR/>Church...community...we need to have coffee!!! soon!!donnavhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03125404390283700448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-80199202764555792512007-07-17T08:47:00.000-07:002007-07-17T08:47:00.000-07:00Cynthia - There's always room for paint, isn't there?Erinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01067954787472463337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16714549.post-3688413056909316572007-07-17T08:46:00.000-07:002007-07-17T08:46:00.000-07:00Grace - I read your post and enjoyed your thoughts. <BR/><BR/>The truth is many church leavers ARE bitter and cynical. Eventually, though, we do get over ourselves and wonder "what next".<BR/><BR/>Thing is, I have looked around and found that we (in my neck of the woods) still are sorely lacking communities which give a doggone about something outside of themselves. I think in the bigger picture, if this one element is missing, I can't see myself there. <BR/><BR/>The one thing which I really struggle with is simple: there are wonderful missional communities in Portland - however, to the best of my knowledge, they are all a minimum of 10 miles from my neighborhood. My heart longing to be involved in my community - I don't want to join a missional community which removes me from my <I>own</I> community. In other words - leaving my community in order to find community.<BR/><BR/>Bob is a big advocate of church planting and sometimes I do ask myself - well why then don't we just start something ourselves? That's a huge question.<BR/><BR/>And the last thing is simple - being involved in church takes TIME. Not that I have a problem with that in and of itself. But when I was involved in church my time slowly seeped away until I no longer had time to be with my friends, family, or community who are outside of my church. These days I am loving investing myself in relationships which I previously did not have time for because of church commitments. <BR/><BR/>I know there is a balance, but we all know that balance is a challenge to maintain. I failed MISERABLY at it in the past - so I obviously have a problem there.Erinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01067954787472463337noreply@blogger.com