Comments on Mapless: I went to church, can you believe it?

hi Prodigal Prophet. I agree that labels do more h...

2010-06-04T08:42:06.959-07:00

hi Prodigal Prophet. I agree that labels do more harm than good. I doubt the labels are going anywhere soon, but it would be interesting, wouldn't it?

Boy am I sick of labels in the spiritual marketpla...

2010-06-02T14:03:36.713-07:00

Boy am I sick of labels in the spiritual marketplace! Let's drop them all! Radical but much needed - might stop the rivalry between religious faiths and groups!

I hear you, and it makes sense, although I did und...

2010-05-24T11:56:13.533-07:00

I hear you, and it makes sense, although I did understand that they were formed around the time of WWI. I checked and found that you are right.

I still don't understand how the reality fits with the professed mission, though. :)

Oh, and actually, the UUA has only been around sin...

2010-05-24T11:00:09.347-07:00

Oh, and actually, the UUA has only been around since 1961. The Universalits and Unitarians (both strongly Christian) were around since colonial days, but they didn't merge here in America (they're still separate elsewhere) until 1961. And even then, it was later that the secular humanists (first) and Pagans (the final) started joining the party. I'm not sure where Buddhists and such fit in, historically. But yeah, so the draw from other traditions is actually still relatively new, I think.

Barbara - I didn't mean to miss your comment.....

2010-05-24T10:55:58.779-07:00

Barbara - I didn't mean to miss your comment...I think in some ways Jarred has answered your question. Maybe rather than being too "easy" it would be too "hard" to mesh traditions...

But then the spiritual climate here in Portland is such that it's more challenging to find a person who practices just one tradition than it is to find a person who follows multiple traditions...so I would think at leas us Portlanders could figure something out. We have a deep well of roll-your-own spirituality here, I would think a UU church would be able to pull them all together.

I already have enough on my plate right now, thank...

2010-05-24T10:55:10.639-07:00

I already have enough on my plate right now, thanks. In fact, I need to spend some time pestering "The Boss" about what she wants me to do for the Working in tomorrow night's ritual. :-P

Jarred, I don't profess to have the answer, I ...

2010-05-24T10:40:23.262-07:00

Jarred, I don't profess to have the answer, I was more making an observation that I was somewhat disappointed by their obvious failure to honor traditions other than Christianity. They've been doing this for 100 years (more?), so if they haven't found a way, I suppose there isn't one. And yet, based the mission they claim, I expected more.

But I'd be interested if you wanted to tackle it!

In fact, maybe you could give it a try yourself, E...

2010-05-24T10:28:43.237-07:00

In fact, maybe you could give it a try yourself, Erin. I'd be curious to see what you came up with. ;)

I see your point, but I also have to note that tho...

2010-05-24T10:27:39.180-07:00

I see your point, but I also have to note that those are some radically different traditions with quite different liturgies. For example, most Pagan traditions don't really lend themselves to the leadership(performers)/congregation paradigm inherent in the mainline Christian liturgy. (Of course, learning to adapt Pagan liturgy to work well with huge groups of Pagans is something that takes considerable skill and planning.) So I'd be curious to see how someone would figure out how to mix and match and what the result would look like.

I may actually do my own blog post on this topic, the more I think about it.

Hey this was interesting. I have always been curi...

2010-05-23T18:35:19.169-07:00

Hey this was interesting. I have always been curious about UU services. You ask a great question - Why? Why not do something different from "a traditional thing wearing a liberal mask, and a liberal thing wearing a traditional mask?" Kind of seems too easy or safe or something.

I suppose I would think they should borrow from ma...

2010-05-22T17:28:18.616-07:00

I suppose I would think they should borrow from many traditions, not just Christian ones. That's what really bothered me. It could just be unique to this particular church, as I haven't been to any others, but it sure seemed Christian-any mention of Jesus.

It would almost be more interesting to me if they incorporated traditions from Buddhist, Muslim and/or Pagan faiths. Wouldn't seem so sterile.

Erin, I understand what you're saying. I'...

2010-05-22T03:53:06.113-07:00

Erin, I understand what you're saying. I'm just not sure there's any real solution to the underlying issue. As the saying goes, you can't please anyone. And I imagine that if the UU church did create a totally new and innovative liturgy, some members who are from a more Christian background and feel most comfortable with the mainline-style liturgy would feel unwelcome too.

This goes back to a discussion I had a few years ago with a friend (Tracie, I think). I think there's a strong and important difference between saying that everyone is welcome and saying that everyone can or will be accommodated. The latter simply is not possible, in my opinion.

The good news is that if a particular person comes to a UU church, is given a warm welcome, but does not feel that the style of worship (or anything else) of that particular church, then there's no harm and no foul (or at least there doesn't have to be). There can be a friendly parting of the ways (and even an agreement to keep in touch on a social level), and the person can look for something closer to what they want.

As an interesting aside, I understand there's a somewhat interesting UU church a county or two over from me that has a quite a Spiritualist flavor to it. I'm not sure what their overall liturgical structure is like (I've never been there myself), but mediumship and direct messages from spirit apparently plays a significant role in their services. So in that sense, I think the UU church has one thing right: The liturgy can be tailored (and possibly even rewritten in total) according to an individual congregation's tastes and needs.

Me, I think the UU's are great people and I love having coffee with them. But when it comes to worship and contact with the Divine, I'll stick to sacred circles. ;) (Though two of my fellow coven members also attend the local UU church...) And the UU church seems to be quite okay with that, too.

Work In Progress - I agree, most denominations hav...

2010-05-21T07:01:03.478-07:00

Work In Progress - I agree, most denominations have added to Jesus' mission. Most of the ritual I see in any church I don't see in the bible.

Thanks for visiting, I will check out your website and let you know.

Jarred - I understand what you're saying and i...

2010-05-21T06:59:43.242-07:00

Jarred - I understand what you're saying and it makes sense. I just can't understand why the UU church has chosen a liturgical style for their rituals. It would seem to me that kind of defeats the purpose of their mission - being open and affirming to all - if their ritual is clearly based on something generally viewed as restrictive in it's original context.

Does that make any sense? It just seems like someone coming into the UU church who is not from a Christian background might feel somewhat disparaged. Which negates the idea that they are welcoming of all.

It would seem better to have developed their own system of ritual that doesn't have it's roots in any one religious tradition.

Hi Erin, Jesus had a problem with man made rules ...

2010-05-20T20:24:17.344-07:00

Hi Erin,

Jesus had a problem with man made rules too. Often denominations have their own rules over and above what is in the Bible and those are the ones usually stumble people and get confused. When we add to the Bible instead of just following it, it's confusing.

Jesus came for a personal relationship and often this is left out of all the church programs, too much theology.

P.S. Would you be interested in a link exchange.
http://www.work-in-progress-online.com

I think a lot of it has to do with familiarity, bu...

2010-05-20T10:38:25.250-07:00

I think a lot of it has to do with familiarity, but I also think that it has to do with the benefits that come with doing certain things in a familiar way, as well. There is power in doing something familiar. And yes, I'm speaking of power in the sense of how a witch usually speaks of power.

Drawing on a familiar and commonly used/similar liturgical structure is very much like following a well worn and carefully maintained road. The fact that it is drawn on so much imbues that structure with a certain kind of power that helps draw the person along the desired path to the desired results. It (theoretically) helps lead people to the state of mind that is most conducive to doing the necessary work -- thereby leaving the innovative energies more free and readily accessible for that work.

I agree, Aphra, he is OK with the questions, and I...

2010-05-20T07:15:24.343-07:00

I agree, Aphra, he is OK with the questions, and I have been unable to abandon Jesus for any other belief...but I don't like the rules. I guess I'm a rebel!

Sue - Exactly. I like that freedom. Three years ag...

2010-05-20T07:14:24.069-07:00

Sue - Exactly. I like that freedom. Three years ago I would have told you I could find that freedom in a UU church...but I have learned differently, and Sunday just cemented that for me. It's interesting...you say "ways that speak to us", and I am thinking that many Christians believe God speaks to us, but only that he only says "acceptable" things. Well, God told me to leave church to find him, and I did. And I find him in ways I never would have believed before.

Grace - I'm sure you're right. It was more...

2010-05-20T07:11:50.332-07:00

Grace - I'm sure you're right. It was more a rhetorical question...I don't know that there is an answer to it. I guess I was just struck by the similarities between this service and any mainline service.

Nice to see you!

I grew up is a UU church so I know exactly what yo...

2010-05-19T16:20:43.188-07:00

I grew up is a UU church so I know exactly what you mean. Good people. Good plans. But when I became a teenager, they couldn't take my questions. A couple of years later, I became a Christian. I still have lots of questions, but it's the relationship with Jesus I treasure. He seems ok with the questions :)

Fascinating. It always amazes me what a fearful...

2010-05-19T16:19:41.511-07:00

Fascinating.

It always amazes me what a fearful lot we are. I don't think humanity as a whole really believes that we have a lot of freedom when it comes to publicly interacting with God.

So I guess it's our conceptions of God more than anything that hinder us. I don't think we believe we are free to worship in ways that speak to us, because God is rigid. I still think that view of God is the one that holds sway over all overs. All those millennia of religion, they take a lot to wipe off the collective memory banks.

Hi Erin, Those are exactly the questions I am aski...

2010-05-19T10:55:09.485-07:00

Hi Erin,
Those are exactly the questions I am asking. I think a lot of it has to do with our ability to imagine something new that doesn't still have the shape and texture of what is familiar. Mostly I think it is because those who are advancing these models are dependent upon the former structure and system (only with a newer, hipper facade). I have also noticed that many who claim to want something new and different really just a different flavor of the same old thing.