7.21.2010

Does Religion Matter?

Let me be clear again; I'm not here to convince you. I'm only hoping to share some of what I have learned and to pen my thoughts for my own clarity. If it is helpful to you, then wonderful.

In my last post, I ended with the statement that everything depends on what or who a person believes God to be. That cannot be summed up in one post, but I'll start here.

Since embarking on this journey outside of traditional (sometimes known as "institutional") Christianity, my beliefs have changed a great deal. I have come to the point that there is nothing that isn't worth questioning. This doesn't mean I have tossed out every traditional belief, only that I have questioned each and every one of them; coming to conclusions on some and feeling fairly undecided on others.

Before I delve into any of that, though, there is a question that is increasingly on my mind. Summed up in a sentence or two, it might look something like this:

"Does what I personally believe about God:...who God is, what God is, how God works...matter at all? Because, in all fairness and honesty, what I believe, for that matter, what anyone believes, doesn't change the truth, does it? We just don't know with any certainty what that truth is."

Whether my truth be a biblical concept of God, a pagan or Neo-pagan concept, a Muslim concept, a Buddhist concept, or even an atheist concept....none of that changes the reality of God/no god.

Put another way, no one can definitively prove the existence of God, nor can they prove what interpretation of God is true. Nor can anyone definitely disprove the existence of God. For as long as we walk on the earth, God is simply a human perception. I can believe God exists, but does that make God exist if God actually does not exist? Or, if I believe God does not exist, does that make God not exist, even if God truly does exist? If I believe in the Christian God, but God truly exists in more of a polytheistic or pantheistic way, does my belief in the Christian God make the Christian God exist?

See what I'm saying? What I, what ANYONE believes about God, even if a person believes they know the absolute truth, it is still only a human perception. Any one person can insist until they day they die that they know the truth, but what do they actually find out when they die? No one knows.

So, then, what does this mean about the existence of God? Not to be too philosophical, but what if God is something humans have made up, continue to make up, to help us deal with our existence? What if God is just a figment of our minds? I know most atheists would agree with that. Then again, if so many people for so many millenia continue to feel that some kind of religious beliefs are beneficial to their lives, maybe there is something to it?

This is why I have come to the belief that discussion about religion is ultimately futile. It's up to each individual to decide for themselves. Granted, some people aren't afforded the freedom to decide for themselves, but for many people what I believe or what you believe has no bearing on what someone else believes. Yes, you can try to change their minds, and maybe you would be saving a soul (if you believe that), but it still doesn't change what the TRUTH is. However, we don't, can't know that truth, so we are only ever operating under assumptions.

Then, I think, looking at the sheer volumes of people all over the world who hold to devout religion (not including the spiritual-but-not-religious types, the agnostics, and the atheists) how could so many people all over the world be wrong? But, then, if the Hindus are wrong, who is right? The Christians? The Muslims? The Jews? The Druids? The Buddhists? The Rastas? The Pastas? Is rightness determined by the numbers of adherents? If so, then it is equally likely that Christianity, Islam, or Buddhism is the "true" religion. Is it determined by how long a religion has been in existence? If that's the case, it is Hinduism, hands down. Is it determined by money? We all know the answer to that.

The one thing that the majority of people in the world hold in common is the belief in some kind of higher power. However, atheists would say the argument against believers is simple: that science hasn't yet trumped tradition, and most anyone with a thinking mind would have to disbelieve in God. But again, does any of it matter? Why?

I have already rambled too long, so I'll try to wrap it up for now.

What good is religion, then? If we can't agree, if we can't know for sure...why do we bother?

I have come to the conclusion that valid religion (or non-religion) is anything that moves one person to treat another person with greater kindness. Conversely, I do not believe that any tradition that aims to belittle, oppress, marginalize or abuse any segment of the population has anything at all to do with God. I don't believe that morality needs to be determined by the confines of religion, with the distinct exception that any belief or behavior that creates a victim is, collectively, not of God. I believe that any religion (or non-religion) that moves an individual or our society more toward equality, kindness and grace is a good religion and serves a good purpose. For some people, that motivation is God. For some people; their intellect.

As soon as a religious belief causes one person to harm another person, either physically, verbally or mentally, it is no longer of God. Of course, we all make mistakes that hurt others. I'm speaking of those who make it a mission to use religious beliefs to abuse others.

Obviously there is no religion that doesn't marginalize or abuse some segment of the population (including self); if there were, we would probably all be following it. Hence, the religion you choose to follow (assuming you have the freedom to choose) depends more on who you personally marginalize or what behaviors/beliefs you consider to be wrong than it depends on the religion's "rightness".

After this post, you might wonder what I, personally, believe. Or you might wonder why what I believe matters at all.

For over five years I have repeatedly been told not to throw the baby out with the bathwater...meaning, don't leave church just because people are human and make mistakes. I have cringed every time someone has said that gross over-simplification of why I left.

However, I'm finally at a point where I have chosen not to throw the baby out...it's just a different baby.

More on why I continue to follow Jesus...even if scripture has been manipulated, even if what I've been taught about his life isn't true; even if he never existed in the first place...later.

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42 comments:

  1. You talk about not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but what if there is no baby? You're quite right that human perceptions are irrelevant to who God is, or whether he/she exists at all.

    That's why I take an evidence-based approach. No, we can't disprove God's existence, but we can't disprove the Easter Bunny's existence either. I see no evidence for any gods, of any description, from any religion. The minute I do see such evidence, I will immediately convert.
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  2. I don't care about proving or not proving God's existence, for all the reasons you have outlined in your post. It just seems like such a futile exercise in missing the point.
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  3. Barry - You and I already know that a sense of "spirituality", whatever that might be is of different value for different people. I do have "evidence" of a sort. But not the kind you're thinking, I suspect. I submit that you'll just have to wait to see what I'm going to say about it. :)
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  4. Waiting duly commenced ;o)
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  5. Sue - I agree, and I'm very much done arguing with anyone about it. More than anything, it's entirely personal -- and then, it's only a figment of our minds, at least until proven otherwise (at death, most likely -- or the predicted second-coming, which I don't think will ever happen.) There is no real evidence to anything -- if we believe in something, we choose to believe in that something based on either a) how convincing another person's argument is, or b) because that belief serves us in some way. Decidedly -not- on evidence. That's OK, but we have to see it for what it is.

    My father in law teaches what's called "evidences" classes. That is, a scientific approach to the evidence for why Christianity is true. I know precisely the arguments that are used as "evidence" and the truth is, they are entirely unconvincing to a not-already-convinced mind, but work wonders for those who are already certain. If that makes any sense. Kind of like the "Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy" Barry pointed me to the other day.

    And then, if there IS a deity, then that deity must know that it's not possible for humans to have any real certainty about the matter...and therefore should either favor everyone or no one.
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  6. And then, that all supposes the NEED for evidence. I beg to differ. I don't think Christianity, or any religion for that matter, requires to be scientifically evidenced (or even SHOULD be evidenced) in order to be valid...with some qualifications to that statement that I'll make later. Spirituality has nothing to do with science, and Christians are only making themselves look like fools for trying. Galileo said it many years ago....
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  7. I really really appreciate what you wrote about the conclusion you came to...no religion that belittles or maginalizes someone is of God - that whole paragraph speaks volumes, doesn't it? I really love what you have said so far. I have often come to the same place of seeing the futility of even arguing about religion or christianity and all that goes along with it, though I am not sure, for the same reasons. I'm still sorting it all out, I suppose, and if I don't know what I believe how can I argue about it?!

    I think there is still a part of me that subconsciously CHOOSES (is that even possible?) to believe that the Jesus of the new testament bible was a man of love and humility, and that the message he brought was one of love and grace. Although all of the in between stuff in the bible and other people's teachings is so weird to me personally, somehow I think I've learned a lot about grace from this man, and I consider that the most important thing I've ever experienced, and the most important thing I'll be working towards probably for my entire life.

    I love Galileo :)
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  8. Thanks Kari. I think the whole thing is very personal, and we all have to find our own resolution. It's just so hard when we have all these people all around us telling us we have to see it their way. It's frustrating.

    I think I see Jesus similarly to you. The truth is, he was important enough for people to write down these things about him (whether he was or wasn't the son of God), so there must be something to it. Otherwise, he wouldn't have mattered enough.
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  9. "I have come to the conclusion that valid religion (or non-religion) is anything that moves one person to treat another person with greater kindness."

    That sentence perfectly sums up the whole danged thing, doesn't it? Religious, spiritual, agnostic, atheist ... Does what you believe make you a kinder person? I think this is the lesson that the whole of the human race is supposed to get.
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  10. I'll follow this posts, seems like something interesting might be coming... It reminded me of the following quote: “My most recent faith struggle is not one of intellect. I don’t really do that anymore. Sooner or later you just figure out there are some guys who don’t believe in God and they can prove He doesn’t exist, and some other guys who do believe in God and they can prove He does exist,and the argument stopped being about God a long time ago and now it’s about who is smarter, and honestly I don’t care.” - Donald Miller
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  11. Erin,

    For some time I've had this phrase in my mind. I don't know where I read or heard it, or even if I did. But it makes a lot of sense to me, and your post reminded me of it.

    The truth has the advantage of not requiring anyone's belief to remain the truth.

    I don't believe in cultural relativism. There is Truth (capital T). However, I am quite doubtful of humanity's ability to know what the Truth is.

    There is no point discussing Truth with anyone who is convinced they already know the Truth. I suppose that means that I would not have been a follower of Jesus when he walked on earth.

    But I am a follower of Jesus now, or at least I struggle to be one. And one thing that does convince me is that if humanity were ever to know anything true about God, it would have to be through God's self-revelation. Not through anything written or spoken, with all the foibles of human language. But through God revealing God's self to humanity.

    This is the heart of being a follower of Jesus today: In Jesus Christ, God was revealed to humanity.

    I accept that as an unprovable given. The rest becomes the search for a Truth that we can only know in a dim, shadowy way. The struggle to see it clearly, to live it as best we can, to "love neighbor as self", is the daily walk of a follower of Jesus.

    And I grieve for the many ways we find to be cruel to one another. Especially when we institutionalize that cruelty.

    Keep striving to find the Truth! Keep reminding us (me) of the ways that women have been used and oppressed in the name of God. It is far from the only injustice done in God's name. But it is certainly *one* of the injustices done in God's name.

    I look forward to reading more.
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  12. Kay - I agree entirely. :)
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  13. bramboniusinenglish - That's a great quote; Don Miller is a smart guy. It is true, I think many of the arguments are far more to serve the people than God.
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  14. Rich - I heard someone say once "Never argue with a Pharisee; you won't ever win", which goes along with what you said about arguing with people who are convinced they are right.

    I agree with what you say about God revealing Godself to humanity. I think that is something important to me - because I believe that if God is this powerful being, then God is fully capable of making Godself known to the world -- without mankind's input about it.

    Thanks for commenting!
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  15. I find it helpful to separate some things out.

    God, I think, is a really unhelpful word. Because you say God, and everyone thinks of their personal God, or their old God they rejected, or they have a sense that 'God' is a category they want to keep and they need to thrash around for something to call God. Words are useful when they help us communicate. God isn't helpful for that, because everyone's God is their own. So I'm happy to say I don't believe in God.

    Religion, on the other hand is a quite different thing. It is a deeply western thing to assume religion has anything to do with God. I think it is quite valid to seek out some religion: some rhythm and structure in one's life, that is spiritually fulfilling. Ritual is not just about God, and particularly not just about some rich white-guy's view of God. Ritual is the process of investing an action with profundity. To take time to prepare and experience it to its fullest. Alone or with others.

    And spirituality is yet another thing, I think. Spirit is a problematic term as well, but it fares a little better than God. Spirituality seems to correspond with a sensation of context. A sensation that the very real physical boundaries of one's physical and mental self are not the boundaries of one's existence. To feel part of nature, for example, or one with other people. You could talk about a 'higher power', (higher is borrowed from ancient cosmologies where heaven is 'up'), or be pan(en)theistic and see the power of (or encompassing) the cosmos. I don't see why one should want to call this God, I think it is unhelpful to conjure up the cultural legacy of a bearded white guy on a cloud at that point. Spirituality, in this sense, is a mental state that crops up in religious practice around the world. Those who practice it often enjoy and deeply value it. For those of us who do, it can be an end in itself.

    And finally there is morality. In the west God is also used as the ground of morality. God tells us what to do and what not. Or rather we project our own morality on our personal God, and use that as justification. The stronger a person's will, the more they can force their personal morality on others by claiming special understanding of God. But morality has nothing intrinsically to do with any God. It is a decision: I choose to live according to these principles, according to my belief in the inherent dignity and worth of human beings, of living things, of the whole earth, and of the cosmos.

    You asked on Kay's blog whether you should call yourself an atheist and have done. I did that, but it isn't always a helpful pigeon hole to cram yourself in. I would suggest that it might be worth letting go of 'God' though. Whatever reality there is will surely not mind if you stop thinking about him/her/it using a particular germanic-derived word. I'd suggest that it is easier to appreciate the strangeness and diversity of reality without having the word to anchor you in the vested interests of one institution.
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  16. I think Christianity was meant to encompass all of these, and then was labeled a "religion" which I agree, likely has nothing to do with God at all. And again, it comes down to what/who you believe God to be. From what I understand, the Christian faith was meant to be a lifestyle, which is indeed very different from what a western culture cultivates. Our versions of God and church and religion are seperate...seperate from our jobs and our friends and our laws and our homes and our money, and I read somewhere that this started with the Greeks. In contrast, just for an example, the Muslim religion is very obviously a lifestyle, including political laws, etc...where in America, we are sure to separate "church and state" for the fear that the state would tell us how to worship and what to worship. I like that in theory, but for an authentic Christian style of faith as I believe it was meant to be, I feel like your knowledge and experience of God, does cause a moral reaction. And not just because someone says it's supposed to. That would be just obeying a law, which is a good thing, but not the real thing. I think God is good. And God can and is good to people who have nothing to do with God. I just think that there are people all over the world who are not christian, as we would define it, who are living out of love and experiencing God in amazing ways. I have a family member who has never been to church, will never claim to be a christian, and she is the most amazing example of love and grace.

    I'm not sure I've said what I meant to say...wish I was better at putting thoughts into words!!
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  17. Those are some important differentiations, Ian. I think I have sorted those things out in my mind, I just haven't articulated them yet.

    I have discovered over the last few years that "religious" labels are useless, because even within factions of belief there are many different beliefs. And then, if so many people who supposedly hold to the same beliefs can't actually agree on those beliefs, what good does it do to give it a label if the label isn't accurate?
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  18. However, I'm finally at a point where I have chosen not to throw the baby out...it's just a different baby.

    And the baby will keep changing, Erin. When you look at the baby next year it will be a completely different one.

    I like that you don't want to label yourself. It's a good thing, because it allows you to keep thinking and growing. Your truth will never resemble anyone else's, because the rest of us haven't had your life and your thoughts. So might as well keep yourself from trying to adjust your thinking to anyone else's and from expecting that others will agree with you.

    It is a lonely journey, but at least it's truthful.

    It is possible that at some point you will start identifying with some group or another. Who knows?
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  19. I have nothing to add, Kari...those are great thoughts.

    I think in my journey I have probably become the thing that so many people warned me against...but doesn't bother me a bit. I have chosen to intellectualize religion...in the sense that if it doesn't MAKE sense...well, I can't embrace it. I'm still unraveling what that thing is that does make sense...but I think I'm getting closer.
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  20. Hi Lorena! I was just checking out your blog and something you said on the "about" page really caught me..."Look at my archives and you will see the progress of my de-conversion from anger and turmoil to self-respect and free thinking."

    That made me laugh (at myself!) because it's entirely true of me. I hate to think someone is reading my archives...because I've evolved so far from where I was when I began 5 years ago.

    Anyhow, in response to your comment, I'm OK with the baby changing...which I wouldn't have said a few years ago. Today I get much more fulfillment out of the evolution of my spirituality than to just park myself somewhere and call it good.

    I agree with everything you said!
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  21. Glad to know that you agree! I'd like to believe that I change constantly. I heard once that when Michael Angelo, in his old age, was asked when he learned to be such a wonderful artist he responded,
    "I am still learning."
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  22. I read a few of your earlier posts just to see where you were coming from, and found that I can relate to many of your experiences. It's always encouraging to me to find people who have come from a similar place and have arrived at similar conclusions as I have.

    It's very nice to meet you and I look forward to reading more of your posts!

    And I do agree about change. Whatever is this notion that faith isn't supposed to change? Who came up with that rule?
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  23. Erin, I'm so glad you are unraveling it all because I don't have the motivation or energy to do that right now! I long for the ability to really search these things out and think about them, but the best I can do for the moment is to follow along, and I so appreciate your journey and your thoughts and challenges and questions :) Every time I begin to try to rationalize or make sense of most of what I was taught (and is still ingrained) about God, it gets so frustrating, I get so lost, and I've just had to be ok with letting it go until there is time and energy. So...for now, I live in a state of limbo.
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  24. You know what, Kari? It comes and goes. I will go through a spell of a month or two where I'm deeply sorting...and then months of nothing. I think it's a process, like anything. Two steps forward, one step back.

    I don't pretend to know anything more than anyone else...except what works for ME. But if my ramblings inspire you in your own search, then I'm glad.
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  25. Hmm... Ian articulated things well.

    I have come to the place where I view religion as a purely manmade things for the controling of men... I find myself in the uncomfortable position of agreeing with the words (if not the heart) of Vladimir Lenin when he said tate religion was the opiate of the masses. I think religion's purpose is to control people and, ultimately, to try and control God.

    There is a verse in Isaiah that has been resonating with me for several years now... keeps reverberating and re-afirming itself... I think it's Isaiah 45:6... God talking to Isaiah "To whom would you compare me, the incomparable? Can you picture me without reducing me?" No matter what race or culture or religious background, any attempt by any human to picture God inevitably only produces a partial picture of him... reducing him to managalbe protions....
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  26. Glad (and thankful) to know you've been reading my blog, Erin. You'll find some very neurotic pieces there, but that's were I was then.I've left them, because I ain't perfect and I figure that my imperfect journey may help somebody.
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  27. Katherine, wow I'm glad to see you!

    I agree completely. It's all pieces of the same puzzle, and it's up to each of us to find the way. Wasting time arguing about theology or whatever when we could be doing good in the world...it completely misses the point.
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  28. Lorena - I completely get it about old posts. I am the same way. I don't even recognize myself when I started this blog 5 years ago, but I decided to leave it all intact so I could see the journey, and remind myself of what I want never to go back to. And what you said, about hoping that someone would see themselves in it and be encouraged.
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  29. I agree that "God" can mean and be so many different things to different people. So I hesitate to use that term at times. When I do do, I'm referring to Jesus, and who he demonstrated him/ her to be, so contrary to most all of what religion is all about. I do agree that the reality of kindness and genuine care is the only manifestation of true spiritual power. Every thing else is "whatever" to me as well.
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  30. Hi Manuela - I think any aspect of any religion that causes people to be unkind, abusive, controlling, or violent is clearly not of God.
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  31. Erin to Manuela.... Yes, exactly. Sigh.

    Erin Thank you for the kind words. :-)
    It is good to see you all again, too.
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  33. My name is Christopher. I come from a Christian family. Way back, after finishing my schooling and when I was doing my Intermediate (junior college), I sensed a kind of emptiness in my heart. (This emptiness, which I later-on understood, was God’s way of drawing me to Himself). In my desperate attempts to solve this problem, I found myself bunking college and attending Christian meetings and visiting Christian bookshop with the hope of finding a solution. During one such visit to a Christian bookshop, I came across a small book-let titled; Tell me plainly, how to be saved. Through this book-let (written according to the Bible), I have understood that every human-being is a sinner and is bound to go to hell after one’s time on this planet-earth is over. But God’s great love for man-kind made Him send His only son, Jesus Christ, into this world. Jesus, who lived a sin-less life, suffered an account of our sins and died on the cross in our place. He rose again from death the third day and is now in the midst of us in the form of the Holy Spirit. Whoever believes in Him will become a child of God and will skip hell to enter heaven, the presence of the Almighty God.


    The book-let went-on to say that the way of believing in Jesus Christ is by repenting of our sins and asking Jesus for forgiveness for our sins as only the blood of Jesus Christ has the power to cleanse us from every kind of sin. Then we should invite Jesus into our hearts. When I did all this, the emptiness in my heart left and the love, joy & peace which I never had till then filled my heart. Since then, the Lord has been wonderfully leading me and has never left me alone, as per His promise in the Bible for all those who come to him in faith. He gave a purpose for my living. Whatever I have been going through in life, I can say with all confidence, that there was never a time that I felt or was left helpless; this is so as one of the precious promises in the Bible says: “Even lions go hungry for lack of food, but those who obey the LORD lack nothing good.”

    This is how the Lord has sought me, forgave my sins, made me His child, gave me a purpose for living, has been meeting all my needs and put His peace & joy in my heart that no person or experience or circumstance or problem can take it away.

    It’s a Biblical fact that every person has a heart with a God-shaped vacuum and nothing can fill that vacuum, except God Himself. This is why we need to invite Jesus to come into our hearts after repenting of our sins.

    The one decision I will never regret is, giving my heart to the Lord Jesus Christ. I hope and wish that you also will make a decision to make Jesus Christ your personal Lord and Savior. If so, please say this prayer meaningfully from your heart:

    Lord Jesus Christ, I believe that you are the Almighty God. Thank you for suffering on the cross for my sake. I now repent of all my sins. Forgive me of my sins. Cleanse me with your precious blood. Come into my heart, Lord Jesus and make me your child. From now on, I will read the Bible regularly and obey what it says. In Jesus’ name, I pray. Amen.

    If you have made a decision to follow the Lord Jesus Christ, please let me know the good news. Thanks. May you know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
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  34. Uh, thanks for sharing, Christopher. No thanks, though.
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  35. Christopher: do you really think Erin doesn't know all about Christianity, or that she has never done the whole "repent, believe, ask God into your heart, live for him, get filled with the Spirit" thing? I assure you she did, as did I. It was found wanting.

    Sorry, Christopher, but your God does not exist. There is not one single shred of evidence to suggest that he does. You can pray until you're blue in the face - the only "answers" you'll ever get are coincidences that would have happened whether or not you prayed.

    The idea that every nonbeliever has an emptiness or a God-shaped hole in their heart is simply false. I have been a pagan, a Christian and an atheist, and I can tell you two things. Firstly, paganism and Christianity both elicit the same "inner witness" or nice feelings that you're on the right path. Secondly, that atheism and acceptance that we're on our own with no heavenly father to watch our backs has actually, in my case, given me much more inner peace and happiness than either paganism or Christianity ever did.
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  36. I'm pretty sure that was drive-by evangelism, Barry. But thanks for backing me up.
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  37. Yeah, we get a lot of that at exchristian.net as well. People who are only too ready to preach but not to stick around and defend their beliefs against intelligent opposition. Seems a bit cowardly to me.
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  38. I don't know if it's always intended to seem cowardly...I really think they just want to "spread the good news". But, yeah, cowardly.
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  39. Erin and Barry, I love you both and I wish all good. BUT please call upon Lord Jesus Christ and you will not be disappointed. Please understand that this is a matter of faith and hence, the question of "defend their beliefs against intelligent opposition" as put by Barry, does not arise.
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  40. Barry,I recollect there was a time when I repented of my sins and invited Jesus into my heart,etc, but nothing happened to me as you put it "You can pray until you're blue in the face". BUT just because nothing happened, I did not stop there. I immediately met the preacher (whose message I heard) and told him that nothing happened. He told me one thing and that really changed my life for ever. He asked me, "where did you intvite Jesus into" . I told him "into my heart". Then he said,"Believe that your heart is not empty anymore and that Jesus is in your heart and keep thanking Him for coming into your heart" (I later realised that this faith was what was lacking in me ). When I did just that, I became a changed man. Please try this.
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  41. Wow, Erin - he came back!

    Christopher, you do not love us. You don't even know us, so to say that you love us is ridiculous. The problem here is that you obviously aren't interested in our backgrounds. you only want to convert us. If you were actually interested enough in us as individual human beings you might read a bit more of both our blogs and realise that actually, both of us spent a significant amount of our lives believing exactly as you do - born again, on fire for God, the whole nine yards.

    Personally, I spent more than 20 years as a Christian. I believed it with all my heart, I had faith, I even went to seminary to study theology. I preached, I prayed, I lived it. Then gradually I realised that faith is nothing more than believing things for no good reason, and that there is absolutely no evidence that God exists. There is plenty of evidence that I exist, but for God, who is supposedly so much greater, the evidence that should be there is entirely lacking. Therefore it seems clear to me that there is no God.

    It's not good enough to say that it's a matter of faith, and that evidence doesn't matter. Before you put your faith in something, it makes sense to be certain that it actually exists first. I could put my faith in Shiva or Vishnu or Allah, but I'm sure you'll agree that such faith would be misplaced. What makes your god so different? There is no more evidence that he is real than there is that Shiva is real.

    Please don't tell us to have faith. We did, and it was worthless. Please don't tell us to call on the Lord - both of us did that many, many times but he didn't answer. Why? Because he is imaginary.

    Now please take special note of this next point, Christopher. If you are willing to have an open-minded discussion about Christianity and atheism (in other words, if you are willing to admit that you may be wrong if the evidence shows that, just as I am), you are very welcome both here and on my blog. If, however, you are just going to insist that you have the only Truth and try to convert people, all you will achieve is to irritate. If that's your intention, please do us all a favour and stop posting here.

    Over to you.
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  42. Christopher - Barry tends to be more direct than I am, but I have to agree with what he said. I'm sure your intentions are good, but I was a bible-believing, born-again Christian for 30 years. You couldn't possibly tell me anything I don't already know. You couldn't possibly have experience of god that I haven't been sure I had, as well. I thank you for caring, and I'm sure that your concern for Barry and I is real, but I'd rather not continue this conversation.
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