I have been writing this post for a week now, one sentence at a time. Some new things have come down the pike in my life and my time for things seems to come in short bursts.
Anyhow, I am constantly reevaluating my faith, defining new boundaries, and exploring new territory. This has been one of those weeks.
It began with a post at Free Believers Network...Do people consciously choose not to be free? This post challenged me in several ways. In part, because I found myself nodding my head. I know people, personally, who refuse to be free. They choose to chase traditional evangelicalism as if it will be their salvation simply by way of adherence. However, this post also gave me that still small voice, that check in my spirit. Why? Because of the level of anger expressed towards those who choose not to be free, literally, zero tolerance of people who reject it. One point really did make me think, though.
And Barry, who recently came out of the closet as an agnostic, and the ensuing conversation on his post has made me think. Does a lack of absolute certainty automatically make one an agnostic?
It's always fascinating to me how a few seemingly unrelated posts will move me to some serious thought about my own existence in this faith. Yesterday, I found myself contemplating some of the things I still hold true from my Christian belief system, and I'll tell you there aren't many of those things left.
I love constantly being challenged to grow and learn. I'm hoping to write another post soon about what these three posts have caused me to reevaluate.
Anyhow, I am constantly reevaluating my faith, defining new boundaries, and exploring new territory. This has been one of those weeks.
It began with a post at Free Believers Network...Do people consciously choose not to be free? This post challenged me in several ways. In part, because I found myself nodding my head. I know people, personally, who refuse to be free. They choose to chase traditional evangelicalism as if it will be their salvation simply by way of adherence. However, this post also gave me that still small voice, that check in my spirit. Why? Because of the level of anger expressed towards those who choose not to be free, literally, zero tolerance of people who reject it. One point really did make me think, though.
"When people decided not to get it, Jesus purposefully hid it all from their sight and made them even more blind than they were before they had encountered Him. He literally made them become stupid. He threw out stumbling blocks in front of them so they couldn’t receive it and believe it or not - Jesus took great PLEASURE in the fact that these people were blinded to it..."Nate has returned to his blog for at least two posts, and his thoughts never fail to cause me to look deeply at some of my own perceptions. "Each person has to learn God in their own way", and "What happens when a person's belief structure collapses?" And then, is this always due to study, or sometimes tragedy?
"Those people that love to go to church, you know the ones I mean. The ones depicted by Dana Carvey as the church lady. They are understanding, "in THEIR own way." Those who just go in and don't rock the boat, those that are on fifty committees and are at church every day, to those that come when they feel like it only fifteen to twenty times a year, or maybe just Easter and Christmas. Those that go to church as in chat rooms and blogs. Those that will just meet with some friends on occasion and talk about God. That is "THEIR" understanding, and it is enough for them. Who am I to judge?"
"BUT, when those that are in earnest about their faith study, and find a different God staring up at them out of the pages of their bible, than the one being told about in church, their belief structure doesn't just crumble, it collapses. Crashing down on them, leaving them angry, bitter and in utter despair."My response in the comments: "In my case, it wasn't so much study as it was always knowing the God who lived in me was not the God I was taught about. Then, finally, a life event that proved to me beyond any doubt that these people didn't practice what they preached...they were dead on hypocrites."
And Barry, who recently came out of the closet as an agnostic, and the ensuing conversation on his post has made me think. Does a lack of absolute certainty automatically make one an agnostic?
"It is simply not possible to prove that God is real. Of course, the flip-side is also true: it is also impossible to prove that there is no God."
"The next question, of course, is this: even assuming that there is a God or gods, what evidence is there that Christianity is right about who God is? Why not the Hindus, or the Zoroastrians, or the Wiccans, or the Deists…. You get the idea."But then, does it depend how one defines "God"? My response in the comments was this: "But then, I wonder if absolute certainty is overrated? I mean if the belief in the existence of God (however we perceive that) makes our lives better and inspires us to do good in the world, then what have we lost if it turns out we were wrong? So we just vaporize off into nothingness when we die, but at that point, will we even care?"
It's always fascinating to me how a few seemingly unrelated posts will move me to some serious thought about my own existence in this faith. Yesterday, I found myself contemplating some of the things I still hold true from my Christian belief system, and I'll tell you there aren't many of those things left.
I love constantly being challenged to grow and learn. I'm hoping to write another post soon about what these three posts have caused me to reevaluate.
I look forward to hearing more.
ReplyDeleteI've also spent some time perusing Darrin's blog over at FBN. Very interesting stuff.
Ack! Looks like Typepad or Blogger is turning my OpenID identity into a weird code!
ReplyDelete-- Jarred.
Are you any relation to 3CPO, 6p00?
ReplyDeleteI have been thinking a lot about that Free Believers post. There's something about Darin's attitude that I both like and dislike and I'm still trying to work those things out.
But yeah, I agree, the lady on 50 church committees is trying to be a good girl so she doesn't get smacked upside the head by the bastard god, and expecting blessings in return. It doesn't seem to work, living in a placatory paradigm. Somewhere you're feeling angry at being manipulated. And yeah, then the house of cards falls down and something crap happens to you and whoah, the rage that the slot machine God hasn't come through for you. It's so ... crappy a way to view things, but it's so common in our experience isn't it.
I like the whole "I would rather you be hot or cold rather than lukewarm thing". It shows me that even being cold that God is not finished with people yet. You know my heretical Christian universalist leanings; I don't think God is finished with anyone ever. And I think he is far more Zoroastrian and Wiccan and anything else at all than he is evangelical rich white people Christian. Thank God. But still, for all that, I am interested in reading what you will have to say about all of this. If God was the kind of God that expected us to tick all the right boxes about him, he'd be far easier to know than we all seem to experience, so :\
Excuse my ridiculously long meanderings. I've just got out of bed.
It's good to read you again :)
Wow Jarred, that's some string of numbers!
ReplyDeleteLike Sue said, some of what Darrin writes is fantastic, and some of it is leaves a strange feeling. But it's always food for thought.
I agree with you, Sue. About that post, but also about God being rather broad.
ReplyDeleteI hope I will get around to my follow up post soon...
LOL! Thanks for the laugh Sue. I didn't even think about the possible droid connection. Of course, now I'm wondering if the fact that my ID looks like it has "poo" in it is some sort of poetic comment. ;)
ReplyDeleteRegarding Darrin's post, I also think there's a difference between choosing to reject freedom for yourself and trying to force others into rejecting that freedom for themselves. Part of me wonders if Darrin is really talking about the latter sort of person. I admit I find such people infuriatingly annoying, myself.
But on the flip side, even when pressured by others, don't people still choose that bondage? Sure, they believe they have to. That's hard to let go of. Believe me, I know that. But in the end, the choice is ultimately theirs to make. I'm not inclined to look unfavorably upon them for not making that choice, mind you. But it's also hard to help someone who chooses bondage over freedom.
If you don't mind me drawing a parallel, it reminds me of the discussions that took place at many gay blogs recently. I don't know if you heard the story about the pre-med student whose parents found out he was gay and allegedly forced (his parents are claiming it was his choice, and it's the word of his now-estranged lover against theirs) into an ex-gay program. The whole question came up over how much the decision to go into the program was the young man's choice and how much of it was because he was forced. Some were quite adamant that because he was an adult and could walk away from his family, it was ultimately the man's choice. Others argue that the societal pressures and the pressure of losing his family's support that was too great. (And of course, there was much noise about how this wouldn't even be a problem if ex-gay therapies and ministries were officially declared the spawn of Satan and formally censured by medical and psychological associations.)
Now, you know my personal situation in regards to my love life, Erin. So I'm sure you can see where this is an especially touchy situation to me. I'm inclined to see both sides of the issue. I think the pressure is horrible, and I understand how anyone would be inclined to bow to it. So I have a great deal of compassion. But again, in my compassion, I also know that you can't help someone beat that pressure if they're not willing to take the risks to fight it themselves, too. So it's a nasty situation.
Like I said, I see a lot of parallels between this and what Darrin is talking about. Except I still think he's talking more about those who would try to pressure others into bondage rather than those who choose bondage for themselves only.
-- Jarred.
I think the thing that rankled me about that post was his level of anger. Because on the one hand I could get entirely behind it and it would make me feel good, but otoh there is some voice in me saying that is excessive.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to your parallel, have you experienced situations where you felt genuinely angry because someone was choosing to bow to the pressure of societal norms than to be honest with themselves and others?
Because I think that parallel works on a lot of levels. If we consider traditional Christianity to be a society, then yes, there is definitely a pull to behave a certain way or "ELSE". Those who don't, well they are "bad". But truly so many people I know who have rejected the "normal" are doing so out of authenticity to themselves, and are whole-er and happier than those who do not.
So then why shouldn't we be angry, either of us in our specific situations, if people don't choose the path that will lead to wholeness? At what level is that anger warranted and at what point is it wrong? I suppose that is my question.
What I envision is those who "pop their heads up into freedom" and then are like "nope, nope, too scary". That is a conscious choice not to be free.
I've felt frustration over people who choose to bow to pressure rather than finding freedom in being who they are. I can't say as I'm angry with them. But let's face it, if the frustration gets intense enough, who can tell the difference.
ReplyDeleteThe only time I've gotten angry is in my current situation. And the anger is due to (1) how someone's choice to bow to the pressure affects me and (2) how that choice often feels like a betrayal or (partial) rejection of me. That's a hard thing to deal with.
Yes, I do have a selfish side. Don't act so surprised. ;)
-- Jarred.
So then why shouldn't we be angry, either of us in our specific situations, if people don't choose the path that will lead to wholeness?
ReplyDeleteThe problem I personally find with this is that it leads to me deciding what's right for other people. Since I've had many well-meaning if misguided people try to take on that role for me, I'm hesitant to take on that role for someone else, no matter how much I'm convinced I'm right about it. In the end, I have to let them choose their own way.
That doesn't mean I can't get upset or frustrated. After all, I have a right to my emotions, and they're going to exist whether I want them to or not. So to me, the real question is this: What am I going to do about the way I feel when people do this? That's not always an easy question to answer. And I probably don't always do a good job of answering it in practice.
-- Jarred.
Erin,
ReplyDeleteI just read Darrin's post, and it kind of bothered me...even though backed up by scripture...I like what he said about when he learned to love, he got it, and I think that part is true...but (and I know this is going to sound horrible and I do not know Darrin at all, so I could be completely wrong) it kind of came across to me as if maybe his anger comes from folks not complying with his message, because as humans, that would be offensive, I think. I mean, if you have spent your life and your energy learning and teaching about something, but someone refused to "get it," by their choice...yeah, that would be annoying. But there was a lack of compassion...why not just trust that it's not all up to us, and let God do his/her thing.
However... I'm still thinking about this...and I don't think it's so black and white.
Nor is being certain about God. I think God is something/someone we CHOOSE to believe, and we make the decision to have faith...just because you choose a path, doesn't mean you know exactly what is going to occur on your journey, or where exactly you will end up until you get there. I mean, who knows what heaven will be like? Who knows what God will sound like? Who has been there and back to tell us about it? Will we really go to this place? We don't know...we choose to believe in something and let that something have our future. And, I think if God is who he says he is, he/she can handle our questions...
My spiritual mamma, if you will, once told me that whoever is seeking "truth" will find God. But that this will not necessarily look like the God who is described in our churches, it may look completely foreign...only God knows what is in our hearts and how he draws us to him.
Ok...I feel like I may have gotten way off of the beaten path here...sorry!
Another thought provoking post with some thought provoking comments. Works well enough for me, though, as it gives me something to ponder on the bus ride to work.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with the comment that being wrong on whether a god exists costs nothing if there is no god. Still, it is inherent to human nature to take exception to being duped. Most anger towards we who believe differently or those that don't believe at all comes from this. Not that we don't get it, but the question: what if thet are the ones that have it right.
Jarred - Precisely what you said in your second comment..."deciding what is right for other people"...that is the real problem for me. While I agreed with the nature of Darrin's post, I didn't like the assumption that anyone has the right to be angry because someone doesn't choose the path they would want that person to choose. I am sure this is because I have chosen a atypical path of faith and I can't stand it that other people would say I'm wrong, even to the point of being angry about it.
ReplyDeleteThose are great thoughts, Kari and I agree. Like you say, who has been there and back again to report to us? We choose to believe what we believe...although no matter who we are or where we live, there will be a "spiritual majority" that we will be pressured into joining. Even so, typically at some point in adulthood we choose either to toe the line, or not to, based on what is spiritually authentic for us.
ReplyDeleteI like what your spiritual mama said. I do think God wears lots of clothes, and speaks to each of us in the language that will spur us on to love and to do good. But that is a broad statement and I am too tired to back it up right now.
Hi Steven, it's good to see you!
ReplyDeleteI think that's a critical point...being duped is unacceptable to human nature.
This partners with the fact that, at least within Christianity, there is a fear other religions are right, at least in part because of the idea that if some other form of God is the correct one, will He/She/It be angry that I believed otherwise, or will I miss out on something because of it?
Of course that comes from the idea that the Christian God "punishes" those who don't believe. Once one releases this, then the rest ceases to be a problem.
There's very little left of my former belief system either. I sometimes think that the old, deeply Pentecostal me would have been horrified to see what I believe now. The major difference is that whereas previously I used to think I had certainty, looking into things in more depth has left me with a lot less certainty about a whole lot of things (including, as you know, the very existence of God).
ReplyDeleteIt's true what they say: the more you learn, the more you realise you don't know.
You know Erin if I strip away the religiousness of my faith...there is hardly anything left.
ReplyDeleteIt's so simple and basic it's almost scary.
And that is what leaves me the most frightened with a sense of vulnerability that is not comfortable at all...
I can see why I have hid behind it most of my life.
Barry - Who I was 5 years ago would be appalled to see me now, too. It's amazing how that evolution takes place...even though I have far more uncertainty now, I am also far more at peace with what I believe.
ReplyDeleteIt is very much true in matters of faith that "the more you know, the more you know you don't know."
Rhonda - I don't think simple and basic has to be scary. In fact, for myself, when I took away all the things I relied on to define my faith, and had to lean only on what was left, and yet my faith didn't vanish...well...I have so much more security in it now.
ReplyDeleteRhonda - I don't think simple and basic has to be scary. In fact, for myself, when I took away all the things I relied on to define my faith, and had to lean only on what was left, and yet my faith didn't vanish...well...I have so much more security in it now.
ReplyDeleteSorry for coming late to the program, but, I have thoght alot about how to handle the situation in Darrin's post. The thing that hit me most, is the lack of compassion. That if they don't want to belive, screw em. Well, the way that I deal with it when ask by people about my faith, and I know they really have no interest in it, I simply give them this answer. "When you want to know and understand me and listen, then I will tell you. But until that time, I am not interested in getting into it." Then I walk away. It simply is not worth it to me to get all worked up over some one on this earth's opinion.
ReplyDeleteYou are so fascinating, sorry if it seems I am spamming you blog lol. You are so deep, it is a breath of fresh air to read what you say
ReplyDelete