continued from previous post...
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I still have to sort this out. I'm dissatisfied with my conclusions.
Am I wrong to want it all to make sense? I have never been able to escape my true heart that says all the people, all the religions, all the atheists, all the people who believe in reincarnation rather than eternal life....everyone has to fit into my faith puzzle or else it's all faulty.
I can accept the mystery of God...the things we do not know. What I struggle with, the one place I want answers, has to do with "everyone else"...this seems to be the one thing I need, as a human being, to know: if I fail to believe in or be able to attribute to God the idea of hell, what am I left with?
If God is only this "sometimes available" God, if God is only there for some of the people some of the time depending on our beliefs, this seems to me a fairly impotent God. I could say God is big enough to save everyone, which resolves the impotence factor, but this still does not resolve the fact that not everyone wants the God of Abraham to save them. Where do they fit into the Christian paradigm?
I have tried this on in my mind in every size with no real satisfaction...please assume all other things as equal here...these are good people who care about others and seek to make others' lives better:
a) what about people who faithfully follow other religions, even other gods?
b) what about atheists?
c) what about people who believe in reincarnation?
Of course, the simplest explanation is "they are all going to hell". The thing with the doctrine of hell is it seems to be an easy, even cop-out answer to the question we all, as Christians, have. It seems logically easier to believe there is a nasty side of our faith which explains away what happens to everyone who isn't a Christian; it's easier to make this concession, that God must know what He's doing, even if that means "eternal conscious torture". Separating the sheep from the goats seems simple here (which in nature isn't always an easy task unless one is well versed on the differences - which maybe ought to be an indicator for us as humans), either they follow Jesus or they don't. It's too simple an answer for such a complicated question.
When we choose instead to embrace the idea that maybe, just maybe a loving God truly cannot relegate anyone to such a place as hell, well, then what? When we reject the doctrine of hell, we open these other cans of worms. When I decide that I cannot accept the simplest explanation possible (hell for those who don't follow Jesus), the obvious outcome is that the explanation becomes that much more complicated.
And yet, somehow my heart and soul really want Jesus to be that special...so special that only those of us who know him are truly his. Of course, this feels like a selfish response, but when I look in his eyes, I still wonder...what does he require of us that we might know him, in this life and the next? Just that we breathe? That we call on him and believe? That we be baptized?
What do you believe on this subject, and how have you come to and accepted your conclusion? Do you feel completely satisfied with the conclusion you have? Or do you ever doubt, thinking maybe there is something we are missing? Anyone?
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I still have to sort this out. I'm dissatisfied with my conclusions.
Am I wrong to want it all to make sense? I have never been able to escape my true heart that says all the people, all the religions, all the atheists, all the people who believe in reincarnation rather than eternal life....everyone has to fit into my faith puzzle or else it's all faulty.
I can accept the mystery of God...the things we do not know. What I struggle with, the one place I want answers, has to do with "everyone else"...this seems to be the one thing I need, as a human being, to know: if I fail to believe in or be able to attribute to God the idea of hell, what am I left with?
If God is only this "sometimes available" God, if God is only there for some of the people some of the time depending on our beliefs, this seems to me a fairly impotent God. I could say God is big enough to save everyone, which resolves the impotence factor, but this still does not resolve the fact that not everyone wants the God of Abraham to save them. Where do they fit into the Christian paradigm?
I have tried this on in my mind in every size with no real satisfaction...please assume all other things as equal here...these are good people who care about others and seek to make others' lives better:
a) what about people who faithfully follow other religions, even other gods?
b) what about atheists?
c) what about people who believe in reincarnation?
Of course, the simplest explanation is "they are all going to hell". The thing with the doctrine of hell is it seems to be an easy, even cop-out answer to the question we all, as Christians, have. It seems logically easier to believe there is a nasty side of our faith which explains away what happens to everyone who isn't a Christian; it's easier to make this concession, that God must know what He's doing, even if that means "eternal conscious torture". Separating the sheep from the goats seems simple here (which in nature isn't always an easy task unless one is well versed on the differences - which maybe ought to be an indicator for us as humans), either they follow Jesus or they don't. It's too simple an answer for such a complicated question.
When we choose instead to embrace the idea that maybe, just maybe a loving God truly cannot relegate anyone to such a place as hell, well, then what? When we reject the doctrine of hell, we open these other cans of worms. When I decide that I cannot accept the simplest explanation possible (hell for those who don't follow Jesus), the obvious outcome is that the explanation becomes that much more complicated.
And yet, somehow my heart and soul really want Jesus to be that special...so special that only those of us who know him are truly his. Of course, this feels like a selfish response, but when I look in his eyes, I still wonder...what does he require of us that we might know him, in this life and the next? Just that we breathe? That we call on him and believe? That we be baptized?
What do you believe on this subject, and how have you come to and accepted your conclusion? Do you feel completely satisfied with the conclusion you have? Or do you ever doubt, thinking maybe there is something we are missing? Anyone?
I feel like I'm going out on a limb, answering this, but . . . if you want to know what I think, here goes:
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of it depends on our definition of hell. I believe that hell is, definitionally, somplace completely absent of God. And if I believe that God is the true source of all good and all light, then hell will be in some ways worse than we can imagine. I believe that, as per Narnia/Aslan, that we will all get a chance to look Jesus in the eye and say, "Yes, I want what you have to offer," or "No, I don't want YOU." That God allows us to not choose him, and in doing so, he per force allows us to send ourselves to hell.
I do not out of hand reject the idea that an atheist or Hindu or Muslim could, in really seeing Jesus for the first time, at the judgement, recognize in him what they want and accept him. But I think that somehow, that the time and discussion and witness that we give each other in this life are our best chance to recognize the goodness of what Christ has to offer and so embrace it at that time. That those who have spent a life time conciously rejecting God and bolstering their own pride will find it hard to look Creator God in the face and accept that he is God and that they have perhaps inflated their own importance adn capabilities.
Ultimately, God gives it to us to not choose him, if we want to . . . but that since we were created by and for him, for us to choose to sever our selves from Light himself, will in fact, be hell.
Am I allowed to answer the questions? ;)
ReplyDeleteI am inclined to believe that everyone goes through reincarnation. To me, this only makes sense because everything about life and the universe is about cycles and new beginnings and new endings. It only makes sense to me that birth, life, and death itself would embody these cyclical patterns as well.
I'd say that I'm "certain enough" about this belief, though I am also open to the possibility that I am wrong. And in the end, I'm okay with that too. Because no matter what, I feel it'll all work out. And I'm convinced it'll work out to the benefit of everyone, even if I don't know what that'll look like. I guess I'm just not a details person. Love me anyway? ;)
But to a degree (and I hope this doesn't come across as derogatory or contentious), I also have to admit that what happens after death is not a huge concern for me. I'm concerned with this life, and the people in it. I'd rather spend my time pondering what I can do to make my life and the lives of those around me a little bit better. I suppose you could say I'm interested in grace and love for today, both in terms of receiving it and granting it.
-- Jarred.
Hmm... this is an area where my beliefs have shifted (or I've allowed my heart to seek more openly because I've shut the door on dogma. Like I said in the comment on the last post, I think that it is all about the heart and whether the heart accepts or rejects Jesus, regardless of whether the person knows that it is Jesus talking to their heart. I can believe that someone who does not believe in God (or does not want to believe in the God they have been show by other people) can still hear His voice in their heart and follow.
ReplyDelete"He went on: "It's what comes out of a person that pollutes: obscenities, lusts, thefts, murders, adulteries, greed, depravity, deceptive dealings, carousing, mean looks, slander, arrogance, foolishness—all these are vomit from the heart. There is the source of your pollution."" Mark 7:20-23 (Message
Hmm...
"This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life. God didn't go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again. Anyone who trusts in him is acquitted; anyone who refuses to trust him has long since been under the death sentence without knowing it. And why? Because of that person's failure to believe in the one-of-a-kind Son of God when introduced to him.
"This is the crisis we're in: God-light streamed into the world, but men and women everywhere ran for the darkness. They went for the darkness because they were not really interested in pleasing God. Everyone who makes a practice of doing evil, addicted to denial and illusion, hates God-light and won't come near it, fearing a painful exposure. But anyone working and living in truth and reality welcomes God-light so the work can be seen for the God-work it is." John 3:16-21 (Message)
Again, rejecting Light (Jesus) is the issue - the heart pursuing darkness or light. Hmm... but we have to be careful not to let that imply that someone can earn their way into Heaven. I think it comes down to a heart that follows the Light as they can perceive it, or a heart that rejects that Light.
Hmm... I sure don'[t know the answers, and you are right, it is a rather large can of worms. Fortunately for me, I am not the one who has to sort the worms out. ;-) I am only responsible for following the Light I have, and His name is Jesus. But He is not nearly the way the church has portrayed him - at least not to me...
My thoughts on our eternal destiny: it's not something we can really know about, as none of us have been there yet. God is merciful and wise, and so I leave it to him. It's not my place as a human being to decide who is "in" and who is "out", or what happens to those (if any) who are "out".
ReplyDeleteI know that may sound like a cop-out, but do we really need certainty on this? Would it really change anything about our day-to-day lives? I've come to realise that it's OK (and maybe even preferable) to accept that there are some things we can't possibly know for certain. This, IMO, is one of them.
"At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I still have to sort this out. I'm dissatisfied with my conclusions. Am I wrong to want it all to make sense? "
ReplyDelete_______________________
Okay, this is as far as I've got in your post and I want to say something already :)
I don't think you sound like a broken record. I know you feel like one, being surrounded by a culture that is full-on into getting the answers to bloody everything. But Erin, this stuff takes time - years, and years - to work out. Please don't feel like you need to apologise about seemingly covering the same ground. It's necessary to come back to the same ground.
Think of it as a spiral, rather than a linear progression. You're spiralling upwards towards something, but you come around over and over to the same place again, but with a slightly different vantage point each time. I really enjoy hearing what you've got to say, even if it's the same territory you've covered previously.
I just wanted to say all that. I think this is to myself as much as it is to you. Anyway, going off to read our actual post now :)
I LURVE this post. You remind me SO MUCH of myself, Erin, the things you ask. I started asking these questions on the Lifestream forum (or was it The God Journey?) about 7 years ago. Felt like I couldn't rest and trust in this God who was going to send a whole stack of people to hell. Felt just as rickety with that kind of God as I did with my own emotionally unavailable father. It felt just as dangerous. And so I was asking all these questions and someone on the list emailed me off-list privately and we started working through those things. He took the time out to email me backwards and forwards privately, sharing what he had discovered, letting me ask the questions I needed to ask, showing me what he had found in answer. It was wonderful. (That was Paul Young from The Shack, by the way, who took the time out to share with one person. I thought he rocked even before he got "famous" - I don't ever want fame, thanks very much, it looks like it sucks to me, not that it's looking that way to Paul, I think he is maybe a bit more mature and ahead of me in the game ;)
ReplyDeleteAnyway, that all led me to the whole UR thing, and suddenly I felt like I could really SEE IT, you know? I read Hannah Whitall Smith's accounts, bought a whole lot of books on the topic, and suddenly everything started opening up to me. I really felt like it was some sort of scales falling off my eyes, you know? But most importantly, I felt like I was starting to see in front of me some pieces of the puzzle starting to fit. I think God is committed to this. I also think that the reality of God is what you are sensing in your heart, that God is only God if he is this all-encompassing. I believe the ALL referred to in the New Testament about Jesus saving all mankind, really does mean all. There are people that will dispute that, but more often than not they are rich, white, and male (apologies to anyone of that persuasion or any of those persuasions, there is nothign inherently wrong with any of those things except that the combination of the three will go towards blinkering your vision, being way too powerful a sabre for any mere mortal to weild without damage).
And yeah, so that's where I'm at. I'm sorry I raved on so much but this is one of the things that makes my heart beat faster. I know I haven't answered any questions for you. I don't know about all the other religions. But these days, my thoughts on religion is that it is a human construct. God wants relationship not religion. We want religion because we are scared, naked, ashamed and alone and the freedom of God is far too scary for us. But he is patient.
Sorry I've been away from the comments on this all day; I'm painting the family room...
ReplyDeleteSara - Let me ask you this, just to clarify...you are saying that everyone who doesn't worship the Christian God through Jesus is prideful, or at least prideful in their decision NOT to choose Him? Because I have a hard time accepting that for myself. Some of the most humble people I know are not Christians. What do you think it is about not accepting Christ that makes them seem prideful?
ReplyDeleteJarred - Of course you're allowed to answer!
ReplyDeleteWhen you changed your beliefs, did you find it difficult to accept reincarnation, or did it seem to make sense to you right away? It seems odd to me but only because I'm culturally and religiously indoctrinated against it. In some ways I wish I did have another chance at this thing...but that really challenges me.
And your last paragraph is perfectly "missional" to borrow an emerging church buzzword. I, too have found that time spent with people is extremely valuable to me, far more than eschatology or evangelism ever has been. However, I just seem to be stuck on this issue...I'm sure it will pass and I'll move on to some other (probably equally) perplexing question.
Katherine - I really like the way you put that...Jesus being light (in my mind 'goodness') and that people either listen to the light or the dark ('evil' - which I take to mean the desire to do harm to others).
ReplyDeleteBarry - I'm with you...until this point in my journey I have been precisely where you said you are on this issue - because God is big and smart and we are small and, well, stupid is the word I use. But for some reason it's nagging at me right now, and I can't seem to shake it. It could just be a phase...it's just something I've never thought through to the end points with all it's repercussions before.
ReplyDeleteSue - Thank you. I do know it's a process...it's nice to know at least one person doesn't mind if I'm boring...
ReplyDeleteAnd I don't have anything to add to the other stuff you said. I love that you get me and are so willing to be honest about this stuff.
I'm good with the ALL being ALL, but I still struggle with what that means for people who put their heart and soul into another path, especially if it's entirely good and kind...because is it's kinda weird to me to think Jesus invalidates all that in the end...if that makes sense...
Maybe he doesn't invalidate them, somehow?
ReplyDeleteI don't know. This confuses me because I feel like the answers are all there, it's just that our perceptions are 3 degrees off.
what is it that makesyou think god would invalidate their faith? or rather, HOW would their faith be invalidated?
ReplyDeleteas long as we're free to leave book length comments here, i'll give it a go...
this is what dropped itself in my lap a few years ago and really changed my world forever. i see the cross as a thing finished. you know this, i've said it before. it has happened, you cannot go back and undo it. and if this thing happened, and the god had declared that this single act is sufficient to cover over all of our missteps and rebellion forever. in light of this, i do not see how anyone, through ignorance or intention, can counteract this. i just don't. i can't wrap my head around it.
to me, this brings about an entirely different set of circumstances. to me, i don't see the cross as something people need to "accept" like a free "gift". rather, i think it is something people already have. they are either aware or they are not. which is what i think katerine is hitting on. the "veil" has been torn in two. (which was only in our minds) access to the infinite divine is available to everyone. some recognize, some don't and some think they are recognizing when they are not, and while still others think they are rejecting the divine and running away only to find that they have been running closer and closer by rejecting the false idol they can no longer believe in. (that's your atheist answer...IMO) everyone has different experiences. i, for one, have simply seen too much evidence to not believe in the infinite divine. others have suffered too much or witnessed too much suffering to believe. does that mean that they don't believe? or does it mean that they no longer believe in the fluffy bunny who doesn't really exist anyway, so it's GOOD for them to acknowledge and embrace truth?
i belive there is a lot to be said for light and dark. i have met so many outside the confines of definition, just people from all walks, who simply act in a "light" manner trying to be the best they can be, offering help to strangers, clothing and shelter to those in need... and i've met others from the "right" groups who seem to not bat an eye at fucking over anyone they can just to make a dollar or get themselves a little more temporary pleasure or show once again how they are superior to "everyone else."
but at the end of the day, i would rather bump into them in 10,000,000 years and have them say, "yeah, i was way off. sorry about that." and have them enjoying the same eternal quality of life rather than having them tormented forever for a few years of ignorance. that is the desire of my heart for everyone.
i think this has radical implications for ourselves and our world and the "everyone else", but i don't want this to get TOO long, so i think i'll stop there for now.
i need to feed the young'ns so no time to proofread. i hope it makes sense and is legible!
happy "american celebration of the little guy finally telling their government to fuck off and being willing to stand up and die for that day" today!
Honestly in my life right now...
ReplyDeletethese questions only add more questions.
I guess I've grown comfortable with loads of questions.
I think some things are just plain cut and dry and others are well, complex.
My estranged Dad once told me he didn't believe in a God who sent people to hell.
Which the definition of hell to me, is seperation from God.
But, that's a whole ball of wax I suppose???
So, that works for him...
We are still estranged.
Zero relationship.
Who's in hell?
both of us?
???
Erin you have an awesome way to pull things out.
Thanks!!!
Sue, your journey sounds so much like mine! I remember reading that read Hannah Whitall Smith's account as well. (If anyone wants to read it you can do so here:
ReplyDeletehttp://tinyurl.com/5vhqmt
or
here: http://tinyurl.com/69y9tc)
Everyone loves her books, but most have no idea of where she comes from :).
Tracy
I wonder....
ReplyDeleteWhat if dying and becoming ONE with God means we lose our individual identity anyway? What if all light goes back to it's Source and all darkness disappears?
Whatever doubts I may have about a 'hell' might be because I cannot imagine the 'good' side of the people I know going to a bad place...although I really don't want to see their bad side in heaven for eternity either.
What if the good part of people, the light, goes to the Good place and the dark part goes to be with the rest of the darkness? Do we all contain both Light and Darkness? I think I DO, and I don't mind the dark part of me going away forever.
Maybe all light comes from God and goes back to God? Maybe the only part of me that I want in heaven is the part that I love...the good side of me...the light that didn't originate from me anyway...
Maybe I don't go to hell or heaven...maybe only the heaven in me goes back to heaven and the hell in me goes back to hell...it makes me want to be full of heaven so more of me can go home when my body dies.
Maybe this is all the LSD I did 30 years ago talking...
Pride. Um. Okay, I know what I think, but I haven't exactly tried to nail it down in so many words before . . . lemme see if I can make this make sense.
ReplyDeleteI think that pride, wanting to set ourselves in a higher place than God, is--if not the original sin, all tied up with it. I think that God's grace is an affront to our pride--we don't want grace. We want to be able to do it ourselves. To be good enough. To believe that our sin isn't really that big of a deal. But we can't and it is . ..
I believe that true humility is one of the most important virtues we can foster. True humility seeks the truth but doesn't flinch from saying "I was wrong" when they find something better than what they previously held.
I believe that the longer we live holding untrue views, the harder it becomes to admit it when we're wrong about them.
I believe Jesus's claim to be Truth.
I believe that there probably are non-Christians who are seeking truth with humility of mind and spirit, who have rejected rejected Jesus as he has been presented to them in this life, who nevertheless, when confronted with the living, risen, Christ will recognize in him the truth of what they have in fact, been seeking.
I believe that each of us will be confronted wtih the reality of God as he truly is, and that our choice is to either kneel and acknowledge him as such, or not. I believe that there will be many church-goers, who will find that the safe little god who they have worshipped in nice Christian churches looks nothing like the real sovereign of the the universe, and that they too will have the choice to accept that God is more than they thought, or not. And that there will be those who will not have the guts to say, "The Jesus I believed in was not the real Jesus. I was wrong."
The Christian doctrine of sin and grace is, at its core, humility-bringing. Humiliating. It says, "I'm screwed up and I can't fix myself." God tells us, "I'll give you everything, but you have to give me everything too. No half measures." And I think that's a lot harder for a lot of people to swallow than they like to admit.
I'm afraid this has turned nearly post length . . . but I hope I answered your question?
In looking back over your question, I guess I'd sum up like this . . . I'm not talking about someone "rejecting Christ" now, in this life as necessarily over prideful. I'm saying that when it comes to the point when each of us gets to look Jesus in the eye and really see him in all his glory for who he truly is--that there will be those who at that time will not want to swallow their pride and kneel to him.
Tracey - yes, and what frustrates me about bloody book publishers co-opting stuff is how that chapter on UR was left out of her books. How dare they.
ReplyDeleteBut then, it doesn't fit in the dominant paradigm does it, so cut it off. She must have been spinning in her grave in fury :)
Sue~
ReplyDeleteHow dare they, indeed. That is the height of dishonesty. Do you know which publisher is responsible?
Katherine, I don't know who the publishers are, but it really is totally unfair. Like Gary says on the Tentmaker site, seems a lot of people don't want the unselfishness of God to be talked about. Actually, I think a lot of our structures require an angry God. Keeps us more pliable ;)
ReplyDeleteSue, rather than spinning in her grave, I'm guessing that Hannah is laughing with Jesus, saying, "Oh, won't they be surprised when they found out what I wrote is true?!"
ReplyDeleteYes, Tracey,I think you are most certainly right :)
ReplyDelete(Note to self: do not impose thy own current anger purges out on people who are not at all angry. I guess if she's spinning at all, it's around in fields :)
Sorry, that's Tracy with no 'e' :)
ReplyDeletesomething else... for your consideration on this topic, my dear erin.
ReplyDeleteJN 9:41 Jesus said to them, “ If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘ We see,’ your sin remains.
he is speaking this to pharisees, obviously. and often we automatically gravitate towards the statements on judging and notice the end of his statement. look at the first half, though.
"If you were blind you would have no sin..."
hmmm....if the christian assertion that the world is blind is indeed true, then you need not worry about them. the only ones, according to this, who need worry, are the ones who claim to see!
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteErin,
ReplyDeleteA few thoughts come to mind as I read this...
First...I wrote a piece early in my blog history about hell. Here's a link.
Second...I think Timothy Keller in his book "The Reason for God" deals with the subject of hell in a very winsome way. If you haven't read it, it's worth a read.
Third...I think the very fact that we sometimes have trouble reconciling a loving God with a hot hell underscores the fact that we really don't see the big picture. Because of our limited perspective, there's a lot about God that we can't figure out (and if we could, He wouldn't be God). I think we have to learn to be okay with not understanding some aspects of Him, and why He does what He does. And for what we can't figure out, we have to take it on faith that what He says of Himself, the world, mankind, heaven and hell in Scripture...all of it is true. Even when it messes with our limited logic.
That said...you asked what we believe...from what I understand of the Scriptures, I believe hell is real, and that people will go there. I also believe in a loving God that will do anything short of violating man's will to rescue him from that destiny. But I will say this: I don't think the Scriptures give us a very clear or complete picture of what hell is like (on purpose), and some of our perceptions of it are based more on speculation than Bible. If we knew more about it, it might make more sense. Also...these days, although I believe there is a hell, I'm a lot slower about pre-judging who is going there. :)
Sue - I think you're right, the answer is there, somewhere.
ReplyDeleteJon - I completely get and agree with what you're saying, I think...here is my question...do you mean that it is a gift for everyone that they already have that our religion will get them into our heaven in the end? This is what I struggle with. Someone devotes a lifetime to Buddhism or Druidry or whatever...so is their religion just a facet of Jesus? But then, is that what they want? What if they don't want heaven...they want reincarnation. See what I'm saying? Just imagine for a moment that you were born in India and you are a Hindu. How does even the broadest Christian interpretation of reconciliation make you feel? How does it apply to you?
ReplyDeleteI'm giving you a hard time on this because you are smart and I need answers...not because I'm questioning what you believe...I hope you know that.
Thank you Rhonda. I am OK with questions...really I am...except for this, LOL.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry about your father. I didn't know that.
Thanks for that link Tracy...you and Sue are on the same page because you both pointed me to her today.
ReplyDeleteWhoa Rich, that's a trip!
ReplyDeleteJust messin' with ya...I think I follow...so you're saying maybe the spirit splits? That's interesting...I'll have to give that more thought...but it's thought provoking.
Ok Sara, I think I get what you're saying. So even though we don't necessarily know Truth in life, we will meet it in death and will have to choose. I have considered this idea...but I'm not sure where I am. I do know Jesus is truth for me...but I'm not sure how to carry that out to everyone else.
ReplyDeleteSo what do you think happens for everyone who rejects that truth upon their death?
I'm not sure I believe in a squishy soft Jesus who simply says "Yes" to everyone because he's a nice guy. I like to think he's so big that maybe we are only seeing a part of him...but this is my dilemma.
Sue, Katherine, Tracy...I'm so glad to see the dialog this has fostered. You guys rock!
ReplyDeleteJon - Yes! I have believed that...that only because we know do we have a responsibility...but then it brings me around again to...does Jesus save everyone to heaven...or do they go wherever they believe they go?
ReplyDeleteDon't you love my circles? Are you dizzy yet?
Thank you for your thoughts, Jeff. I will read your link.
ReplyDeleteSee, I have wanted for it to be so simple...but then I see people of other faiths/traditions...and I can't help but worry...I know for most of my life I have believed it was my "job" to convert them so they don't suffer separation...but now I'm not so sure. I got to a point where I stopped believing in the burning hot place and satan with a red suit and pointy tail...and began to understand it as a place of separation. Now I'm not even sure about that...or at least if it's eternal...
Thank you for sharing here...it's not my intent to disagree with anyone, because I'm furiously searching and I need to hear it all.
Okay, today the 30 year old acid flashback has receded...so I can think clearer:>)
ReplyDeleteA month ago my wife and I went to Okinawa, Japan and brought back with us some Goya seeds because we liked the unique bitter taste of the vegetable/fruit. We put about 12 seeds in the ground and now have 5 Goya plants growing.
All of these seeds were dead and I buried them, but now...the resurrection! 5 received new bodies, 7 are still in hell. All of them died, but only 5 were brought back to life.
I don't think the 7 unconscious and rotting in the ground are aware that the others were given new bodies.
No tripp'n today Erin :>) Thanks for allowing me to continue whipping the unconscious equestrian.
not dizzy in the least, rather excited that you are actually willing to whirl around in this exciting dance with me...
ReplyDeletefrom my understanding of eastern religions, through the data i have been privy to, i get the sense that they DON'T want reincarnation. the whole point of life is to achieve nirvana or samsara. did you read the lyrics to bodhisattva vow? like stevie wonder said, "I'm so darn glad he let me try it again
Cause my last time on earth I lived a whole world of sin
I'm so glad that I know more than I knew then
Gonna keep on tryin
Till I reach the highest ground"
the same thing that christians are trying to acheive. they just don't think that you have more than one go round.
however you, erin, keep speaking of us being saved to a place called "heaven." in fact it seems to be the accepted foundation of the beginning of your thinking on this subject. perhaps that foundation isn't the right one to be building on. perhaps you need a different foundation. if everything you keep building from that foundation keeps crashing on you... i don't know. maybe, just maybe it's because the foundation is flawed.
search this out, clarice...
can you find any passages in the bible that says we will go to heaven when we die?
if you're really serious about this, then find the answer to that and get back to me on it. this is one of those things that i think is one of those "unbiblical" biblical beliefs the church holds. one of those things that "everyone knows" but doesn't fully understand why that is the belief.
(i hope nothing in here offended. tone can be hard to blog. nothing but love from here. you asked my brain to go to work for you...)
Hey, Jon, interesting point. It talks about Paradise. It talks about New Heavens and New Earth. It talks about being with Him - then it talks about Him coming down here... interesting things to ponder. ;-)
ReplyDeletevery interesting. in my studies this morning i have found so far in the OT that "heaven" is where god dwells. it is the place where he has his throne.
ReplyDeletejesus refers to it as the "kingdom of heaven". the NT writers refer to it as "heaven" as well. however i did not find anything that said once we die we go to heaven. not yet, anyway.
what i did find is that this "heaven" is indeed, as you pointed out katherine, a temporary place to be demolished and renewed at the end of days. it seems to be a "parallel dimension" (for lack of a better term) which houses the spiritual realm. a world concurrent with our own. things and beings come from heaven into our own realm, but it only speaks of the opposite (something from our realm going into "heaven") 2 times that i have found so far. 2Kings2:11 says that "...Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven." of course, the only other time was jesus who is spoken of several times as entering "heaven." for example Hebrews9:24 "For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands...but into heaven itself..."
the NT DOES often speak of "heaven" as being a place where "god's own" are "enrolled", and a place for them to "store up treasures." (the treasure point is made several times)
it seems to be a realm that we may not enter physically, but that we may be a "citizen of" all the same while in the here and now.
that is all for now.
(i trust everyone here knows enough to take any of my findings and conclusions with a grain of salt and make up their own minds through your own searching?)
Jon~
ReplyDeleteSalt taken. ;-)
Entering spiritually and not physically - I've seen that. I have also seen it in terms of a parallel dimension.
I recommend a topical search on Paradise and Eden...
Jon, salt always taken but man, you guys make for tasty meals :)
ReplyDeleteErin, Just read revelations. The answers are there. Sometimes, when gone to long from the source, we have to go back to remember where everything came from.
ReplyDeleteThe only place we are guaranteed is the Kingdom of God. That is going to be here on this planet.
Rich - Thanks for the seed analogy. One teacher I like says "What's true in the natural is true in the Spirit"....however...would we assume from this analogy that some of the seeds were destined to die? Just askin'...
ReplyDeleteJon - I can see how you would think I'm fixated on heaven...I'm not so much, but rather fixated on whatever it is that we as Christians believe happens to us...does that happen to everyone else, too? If not, what is the criteria? I guess that's what I'm trying to establish.
ReplyDeleteI'm not very well versed in what that is that the bible actually says will happen...well, it's that I still am trying to unravel what I've always been taught from what the bible actually says.
Katherine - Precisely why my confusion...
ReplyDeleteJon - So now you're telling me that ghosts are really people in heaven in the parallel dimension, LOL?
ReplyDeleteYou've given me a lot to think about here...it's going to take me a little while to process it all. Thank you for all your input on this.
Thanks Nate. That's good advice, if I was the bible-reading type (see Jon's blog). LOL.
ReplyDeleteSeriously, you are right. Maybe it's time to take up the book again, if only to sort this thing out for myself somewhat.
You guys blow me away. I just have to say that. The time so many of you have taken to engage this with me...I can't even tell you how I appreciate it. Thank you!
ReplyDeleteJon,
ReplyDeleteBear in mind that Eastern religions aren't the only religions who believe in reincarnation. And some of the other religions (including many traditions of witchcraft and other shamanistic traditions) do seek reincarnation. As an example of this, allow me to quote one of my favorite lines from "The Myth of the Goddess" as recorded by Gerald Gardner back in the 1950's:
For to fulfil love you must return again at the same time and place as the loved one, and you must remember and love them again. But to be reborn you must die, and be ready for new body; and to die you must be born; and without love you may not be born. And these be all the Magics.
Not all who believe in reincarnation seek to escape that process. In fact, some of us seek to encourage it.
Erin,
ReplyDeleteI'd say I mostly accepted reincarnation quite easily. I've often wondered about the details and I'm still not entirely convinced of a specific "mode" of reincarnation that is true. But a self-perpetuating cycle that serves as a continued celebration of the life process has made sense quite quickly.
hey, you got it. take all the time you need. thanks for the opportunity to study and share.
ReplyDeletei understand what you're wondering. about the christian understanding and all. which, again, is where i start MY dizzying circles by saying most christians don't really know what they believe, and if they do, they don't know why or where their belief comes from.
which is the exact problem you are now trying to correct in your own life if i'm not mistaken?
once again, thanks for hosting this and asking these things. it was fun! i know i'm not the only one who enjoyed contemplating these things in the back of my mind as i went about my day.
seithman -
ReplyDeletesorry that i don't have the time to respond more fully right now. perhaps you could elaborate for me a little more fully and explain why you would desire and/or encourage reincarnation?
i only ask because i personally am not necessarily too thrilled with being trapped here in this paradigm and wonder why someone would want to make a habit of it.
Jon,
ReplyDeleteI'm trying to find a way to answer your question that might actually make sense. I admit I'm struggling with that.
I guess that the simplest answer is that I love this life and I love this world. I can't imagine trading it in for anything else -- even some idealized and perfect heaven. To be honest, such a heaven actually sounds unappealing to me, and I could probably go off on a huge tangent on that fact.
In the end, I think it's a matter of differing perspectives. You look around and find life here as being trapped. I look around and find it a glorious experience, "warts" and all. In fact, I tend to think the "warts" actually add to the pleasurable aspects of this life in many ways. So to me, I take great comfort in the idea that no matter what happens, I'll be coming back for subsequent chances to squeeze as much joy out of this world as I can. And if I can add a bit of joy myself to the equation each time, all the better.
I'm almost positive that won't make sense to anyone who doesn't share my perspective. But nonetheless, it's the best answer I can give.
-- Jarred.
Jarred (Seithman) - Thanks for sharing about reincarnation...I meant to ask you, in your tradition do you believe that one is always reincarnated or like some eastern religions, do you believe eventually a person reaches some point of perfection or however you want to say it and then goes on to some other place? I'm just wondering.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad it wasn't a difficult transition for you. I do think when a person has been indoctrinated to look at death a certain way, it's often hard to rewire that. Even for me trying to look at the concept of heaven differently than I have before.
Erin: As a rule, people reincarnate. There's certainly no concept of trying to reach a state of perfection to escape the cycle.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, I intentionally removed the word "always" from my answer to you. Like any rule, there are exceptions. And it's entirely possible that some individuals choose to remain on "the other side," though even that may be a temporary choice rather than a permanent thing.
Jarred - I think what I meant by "always" was not necessarily all people, but of those who do reincarnate, do they reincarnate over and over? But I think you got what I meant.
ReplyDeleteI don't know the answer as to what really happens to any of us...I wish I did...it seems so complicated...a lifetime of thinking of death and heaven in Christian terms has made it hard for me to think of it otherwise, so I appreciate you sharing another perspective.
Erin, Often I wonder the what ifs with you, because I have asked all of those questions myself. There are no difinitive answers really given.
ReplyDeleteThe only mention of people being seen in heaven, is when John wrote in revelations that the saints were with God in heaven when some seals were broken. What constitutes a saint to God, don't know. But what ever the catholic church says, it ain't that. They do not get to decide shit in God's kingdom.
Eternity in their hearts has always been a good start on this question. Don't remember the author's name. But it comes down to the white throne judgement as to who is placed where. "Getting what they deserve according to their works." What are the criteria for the works? It never says. So people have been looking for what those are and trying to tell you what they are. Others have been trying to do what those people say they are, so they can "buy their stairway to heaven."
One other thing that has come to me, is that I can save NO ONE. The only person that I am responsible for is me. Where will I end up after the judgement. The only thing that I know to do with everyone else, is guide them to God, and let him do the rest.
For those ither GOOD people that are not followers of God's. How do we know they don't follow God? I listen to the Holy Spiriti often. Who's to say they don't either. (My belief is when Jesus died, he gave a small part of the Holy Spiriti to everyone. Most evangelicals believe that you do not receive the Holy Spirit until you receive Jesus into your heart. Big difference.)
since this seems to be a ghost town now, i think i will drop this here. response.
ReplyDeleteNate - I have always wondered if the conscience is not God, or at least some part of God. We all have a conscience...we don't always follow it, but we all have it.
ReplyDeleteJon - I'll head over to read your response. But why do you think things are dead here? ;-)
ReplyDeleteMethinks I'm about to open a can of worms for you. ;)
ReplyDeleteIf God is only this "sometimes available" God, if God is only there for some of the people some of the time depending on our beliefs, this seems to me a fairly impotent God. I could say God is big enough to save everyone, which resolves the impotence factor, but this still does not resolve the fact that not everyone wants the God of Abraham to save them. Where do they fit into the Christian paradigm?
I think they're among the ones who are, as Romans says, "locked up in stubbornness, so that God may show mercy" to them. Elsewhere, it also says that God reveals himself to whom he wills, but also hides himself from others. Perhaps, just perhaps, God has decided not to reveal himself to them yet, even though it looks like they're rejecting him.
1) I don't believe in free will, in regards to humans. Otherwise, yes, God would be very impotent, and would be unworthy of anyone's devotion.
2) I don't believe in hell as mainstream Christianity teaches it. There are three different words in the NT that have been mistranslated as "hell" (Hades, Tartarus/Tartaroo, and Gehenna). Instead, I think that "hell" is a metaphor for the various tests and trials we have to go through to reach different points in our Christian walk.
3) I do believe that God will reconcile everyone to himself--if not now, in the age to come (Universal Restoration/Reconciliation)...after people have done pennance (if you will) for their sins--which is eonian (not eternal) separation from God.
In my early twenties, I went through a period of questioning; one of things that bothered me was the concept of "hell" as taught by mainstream Christianity. For some reason, I couldn't reconcile the idea that a loving, compassionate God would banish various people to "hell" (whatever it was) simply because they didn't "make a decision for Christ", and even if they were, in essence, good people. A couple of years ago, I came across various writings online that debunked the notion of "hell", mentioning the word was a mistranslation, that the doctrine itself is man-made! (I checked on my own to see if this was true; I found that it was.) This lead to my accepting Universal Restoration/Reconciliation (the thought that, yes, God is completely capable of saving everyone is extremely liberating). Eventually, the idea of "free will" will be out the window, too (this, IMO, may be a harder pill to swallow than most...I still struggle with this some, which may be why I've been so ardent about this lately on other blogs).
but when I look in his eyes, I still wonder...what does he require of us that we might know him, in this life and the next? Just that we breathe? That we call on him and believe? That we be baptized?
The only real requirement, to me, is to believe in Jesus Christ; and that belief in him, in and of itself, is a gift from God. Not everyone has been granted this belief yet; but one day, everyone will believe, and it won't be a forced event.
Shelly - I agree with the things you have said, and it's no stretch for me to believe in universal reconciliation...however, I struggle to find where other religions fit into that paradigm.
ReplyDeleteIt's one thing as a Christian to say "Ah, it's OK because everyone will go to heaven in the end" because that is what gives me peace. It's another thing to think, well, if someone is Muslim, are we to believe that they will eventually be reconciled to our (version of) God through our Messiah? Because that seems to me to be subjective. Then is their faith entirely wasted? Or will they be reconciled another way? I'm struggling with that question in a big way.
By the way, very nice to meet you, here and on Jon's blog.
Erin, I had something interesting happen yesterday that made me think of you and this thread of conversation.
ReplyDeleteThere was a bug that was inside the window, pounding furiously against the screen with his wings in his attempt to be free. We live in a log cabin and I often find bugs that have gotten into our home. I never kill them. I always catch them and put them outside. Spiders, hornets and wasps, beetles, etc. Only the beetles ever "accept" my help. The others try frantically to get away from me, convinced I'm there to do them harm OR they keep trying their way to get back outside, equally convinced that they can do it on their own without me. No matter, though, because I know what is best for them.
If they stay in the house, my dogs will eventually find them and they will be killed. So, I catch them in a glass or put them on a piece of paper or unlatch the screen on the window, and out into freedom they go.
Anyway, as I was letting this nasty hornet out yesterday, I was thinking about how much we humans are, at times, like those silly bugs. We're convinced we know the way, we're convinced we can find our own freedom and life, etc. I suspect that God is much like I am with these bugs: He knows we will embrace the freedom once He brings us there, and it doesn't matter if we struggle to get away, if we want to do it on our own, etc. He really does know what it is best for us and will bring us to that glorious place of freedom despite our futile efforts to resist his love.
In the end, all will see He was right and loving in all He did to bring us to the wide, open space we all long for.
I'm not saying we're like bugs, by the way :-), but the analogy really struck me in trying to turn that hornet loose yesterday. He just wanted to get nasty with me, but I didn't care: I was going to be set free. It gave my heart joy to see him fly away once the screen was removed! Imagine the joy of Father....
The only "can of worms" as you used that phrase in your article is the doctrine of hell which the church opened in the sixth century when they decided to make it an article of faith. This pagan myth has caused more mental anguish then we can imagine. Enough already!!!
ReplyDeletePlease consider the following:
GRAND ASSERTION
ALL OF MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST AND ALL OF MANKIND WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN JESUS AS LORD AND GOD AS SAVIOR FOLLOWING THE NECESSARY DISCIPLINE OF THE CONSUMING PURIFYING FIRE OF GOD.
Mal 3:2b "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap;”
SUB-ASSERTION #1
MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST HAVING BEEN RECONCILED TO GOD BY HIS DEATH
Rom 5:6-10 “For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from God's wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life?
Note that a summary of these verses could be the following:
While we were helpless ungodly sinners who were His enemies, Christ died for us, declared us righteous by his blood, will save us from God’s wrath, and reconciled us to God through His death.
Helpless ungodly sinners who were enemies of God and Christ may be words written to those of Rome who were currently believers, but here Paul is obviously referencing their status with God prior to their becoming believers. Therefore the being reconciled to God and declared righteous occurred prior to belief since these descriptions are hardly of believers.
At the foot of the cross were many helpless ungodly sinners who were the enemies of Jesus, yet He said, “Father forgive them for they don’t know what they are doing”. I believe the Father was in agreement with this prayer of Jesus and so their sins were or will be forgiven on the merits of Jesus alone. Mankind was declared righteous, or justified on that day. Paul reinforces the fact of being declared righteous was for all mankind a few verses later in Rom 5:18, “Consequently, just as one offense resulted in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in justification and life for everyone.”
SUB-ASSERTION #2
NO “PUNISHMENT”, “DESTRUCTION”, “PERISHING”, “LOSTNESS” IS ETERNAL; RATHER GOD’S “PUNISHMENTS” OR “DESTRUCTION” ARE CORRECTIVE IN NATURE
Now, we do need His discipline to make us fit for His kingdom. This discipline will not be “eternal”, but it will be “aeonian or eonian”, the English equivalents of the Greek “aionios”. “Aeonian” punishment as referred to in Mt. 25:46, one of the proof texts for those who hold to the heresy of the eternal torment of non-believers, is the type of correction that God will administer to the unbeliever. The noun being modified by aeonian is the word punishment, which is the Greek “kolasis” which has been used in reference to “pruning” a plant for the purpose of better production. “Kolasis” punishment is the corrective type, whereas, “timoria” punishment is the retributive type. The “aeonian” life in Mt. 25:46 is the life given to the believer by God beginning at the point of belief. This is that life we enjoy as believers which blesses us now as we deal with this physical life and also blesses us with the promise of immortality and therefore everlasting communion with our Father.
Aeonian destruction as referenced in 2 Thess. 1:7-9, “…who will be punished with aeonian destruction from the presence of the Lord,…”, is the kind of destruction necessary for God to administer for the fulfillment of His purposes. Destruction is equivalent to death in that it is “from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power”. Jesus was “destroyed” at the cross, but as in His case, so with all cases of destruction or death, there is no sense of “eternal” associated with them as Jesus rose to life and “the last enemy to be eliminated will be death”.
The “lost” sheep, coin, and son of Luke 15 referred to a condition that did not last forever. The word “lost” is the translation of the Greek “apollumi”, from which we have the translations lose, lost, perish, destroy, etc. As we can see in Luke 15, the sheep, coin, and son were only “lost” until they were found. This harmonizes with the fact that Jesus said He came to “seek and save the lost”.
Note that the following verse tells us that there is a special benefit for becoming a believer now, but that God will save all of the “lost” unbelievers also. 1Tim 4:10 “For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” The Greek word that got translated “especially” here is “malista”. Checking its usage in other verses makes it clear that especially is a good choice for English since it does refer to extra special attention to something, but not to the exclusion of other items mentioned in the context.
The Hebrew word “olam” has as its Greek equivalents “aion” and “aionios” in the Septuagint. An analysis of the approximately 440 occurrences of olam in the Old Testament suggests that it means a period of time without the end in sight but not necessarily “eternal”, or “everlasting” or “forever”, if it should ever be. Olam was only 3 days in the case of Jonah’s duration in the fish, even though the “traditional” translation has been “forever”. Also, the length of time a person would be the slave has been referred to as “forever”, which we know is literally only for their physical lifetime. Some versions never use eternal, everlasting, or forever for olam. Have you noticed some versions use the phrase “forever and ever”. Have you ever given thought to the absurdity of adding the words “and ever” after you have already said forever? What’s more than forever? That’s like saying something lasts for an eternity and then for another eternity. The absurdity of this should add to our awareness of the bias of those translators who consistently translate olam, aion, and aionios as eternal, everlasting, forever, or the absurd “forever and ever” phrase.
An analysis of the word “hell” is quite revealing. Jesus used the word “geena” or “hades” and tradition (KJV, Catholic church, etc.) has had the ignorant audacity to use this Anglo-Saxon word “hell”, which means “unseen” (a-des), corresponding to the Hebrew “sheol” and attach to it a meaning out of pagan mythology of a place of eternal torment. Dr. Thomas Thayer in his book “The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment” traces this myth of eternal torment that became associated with the word hell to ancient Egypt. Geena (sometimes Gehenna) was the Valley of Hinnom which became a garbage dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem where carcasses of criminals were burned which Jesus metaphorically referenced as a future potential punishment with no sense of “eternal” punishment inherent in its meaning. This refers to aeonian punishment which again is God’s corrective punishment. Gehenna should have been left untranslated because it is a geographical location that the Jews of Jesus’ audience knew exactly what he was referring to. Hades should have also been left untranslated or translated as “unseen” or “the grave” as some versions do, as Hades definitely has no inherent punishment connotation. There are a number of versions that don’t use the word “hell” even once, realizing the bad rap the word has gotten with the erroneous connotation.
SUB-ASSERTION #3
ALL HUMANITY WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN GOD AND WILL WORSHIP HIM SOONER OR LATER
The following are 5 witnesses (scriptures) from 4 of God’s servants: DAVID, ISAIAH, PAUL, and JOHN.
NOTE: Nowhere in the Word do we have any evidence that one must come to belief in this lifetime, which is another myth of man; contrariwise, we have much evidence in the following verses and many others that some will only come to belief after their physical death. At this point some might think of the Rich Man and Lazarus parable. Parables must be discerned spiritually as they are not to be taken literally since they are fictional stories to convey a spiritual message. Consider this, Rich Man = Jews and Lazarus = Gentiles and the spiritual message is that the Jews will be disciplined for their attitude toward and treatment of the Gentiles.
Keep in mind that belief is granted by God in His time not in man’s. God grants belief to some in this lifetime and others after their physical death. The myth that one must come to belief in this lifetime is something man dreamed up or more than likely got from the pagans and added to his traditions, but God’s word does not speak of it.
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Phi 1:29 “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,”
THE MASTER PLAN OF THE MASTER COULD BE SUMMED UP IN A COMPREHENSIVE SUMMARY OF HIS WORD AS FOLLOWS AS ATTESTED BY MANY WITNESSES.
“ALL IS OUT OF ME AND ALL WILL COME BACK TO ME.” --- GOD
Rom 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL = GOD WILL BE EVERYTHING TO EVERYONE
OUR SPIRIT CAME OUT OF GOD AND WILL RETURN TO GOD
DAVID was inspired to write:
Psalms 22:27-28 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations
ISAIAH was inspired to write:
Isa 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.'
Isa 45:24 "Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him.
PAUL was inspired to write:
Phi 2:10-11 “…so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow
— in heaven and on earth and under the earth — and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”
Rom 14:11 For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God."
JOHN was inspired to record:
Rev 5:13 “And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
SINCE AFTER A CERTAIN TIME DEATH WILL CEASE TO BE, LEAVING ONLY LIFE AND HENCE NO MORE SEPARATION BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, ALL OF THESE WITNESSES CAN TESTIFY TO THE SAME THING:
NOTE: The feeble attempt to downplay this worshipping, bowing, and confessing as somehow “forced”, is born out of bias for eternal torment. Note particularly in Phil. 2:11 the phrase “to the glory of God the Father”. It is obviously not giving God glory to say Jesus is Lord without meaning it and you might also recall what Paul said about saying that Jesus is Lord, that “…no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit.” (1 Cor. 12:3b)
EVERY CREATED BEING WILL SOME DAY PRAISE AND GLORIFY GOD!!!
Rock on, Don dude. That broad sweeping vision just changes EVERYTHING
ReplyDeleteThanks for all that Don! Sorry I didn't respond sooner, had a busy week. I appreciate all your thoughts, great stuff!
ReplyDeleteSue - Shall we say 'Love Changes Everything'?
ReplyDelete(Did you know that song?)
Is that, "Love changes, changes everything. Love something something, something about wings."
ReplyDeleteThat one? :)
"Love changes, changes everything
ReplyDeletelove makes you fly,
it can break your wings"
-- Climie Fisher
Yep, that one. Killer one hit wonder.