Continued from previous post...
In my last post, I ended with these questions:
But, what is grace, anyhow? How far does it reach? Is it universal? Then, is God universal? If we cannot earn it, is it a gift we must accept in order for it to be given us, or is it automatic with no prerequisite? And if we do accept it or have been given it, can we ever lose it or be outside of it?
I can't answer these questions with any more certainty than you can, and, in the end, I doubt that the positions we hold have any real bearing on how God does business; this is decidedly not a democracy. However, those questions are key in our own journeys, for answered one way they are exclusive, answered another and they become inclusive; answered still another way, they are universal. We simply have to determine how we will each answer these, and we will know where we fall on the exclusivist-pluralist continuum.
I've already established that I'm not an exclusivist; I was there for most of my life, but it has ceased to work for me; this breakdown has left a vacuum in my belief system. However, inclusivism and universalism are also thoroughly imperfect theologies of God's grace, in my mind. The one major failing, and the reason I don't embrace them, is that while inclusive or universal salvation solves the problem of hell and judgment in the minds of Christians, what about those who practice the other religions we seek to accept? Do they even want to be granted our salvation? Is saying, "Your religion is fine for you here on earth, but in the end, my religion will save you to heaven" an insult to those who practice Islam, Buddhism, or Pagan/Neo-Pagan spirituality? Likewise, what about other religions' claims of exclusivity?
So then one begins to butt up against the quagmire of religious pluralism, which ventures way out into the wild blue yonder. Are all religions and spiritualities equally true and equally valid ways to experience and relate deity, however we might understand it?
However, is this discussion a moot point? In the end, is it even possible to claim Jesus and hold anything other than an exclusivist position? And does it even matter what we believe?
To be continued...
In my last post, I ended with these questions:
But, what is grace, anyhow? How far does it reach? Is it universal? Then, is God universal? If we cannot earn it, is it a gift we must accept in order for it to be given us, or is it automatic with no prerequisite? And if we do accept it or have been given it, can we ever lose it or be outside of it?
I can't answer these questions with any more certainty than you can, and, in the end, I doubt that the positions we hold have any real bearing on how God does business; this is decidedly not a democracy. However, those questions are key in our own journeys, for answered one way they are exclusive, answered another and they become inclusive; answered still another way, they are universal. We simply have to determine how we will each answer these, and we will know where we fall on the exclusivist-pluralist continuum.
I've already established that I'm not an exclusivist; I was there for most of my life, but it has ceased to work for me; this breakdown has left a vacuum in my belief system. However, inclusivism and universalism are also thoroughly imperfect theologies of God's grace, in my mind. The one major failing, and the reason I don't embrace them, is that while inclusive or universal salvation solves the problem of hell and judgment in the minds of Christians, what about those who practice the other religions we seek to accept? Do they even want to be granted our salvation? Is saying, "Your religion is fine for you here on earth, but in the end, my religion will save you to heaven" an insult to those who practice Islam, Buddhism, or Pagan/Neo-Pagan spirituality? Likewise, what about other religions' claims of exclusivity?
So then one begins to butt up against the quagmire of religious pluralism, which ventures way out into the wild blue yonder. Are all religions and spiritualities equally true and equally valid ways to experience and relate deity, however we might understand it?
However, is this discussion a moot point? In the end, is it even possible to claim Jesus and hold anything other than an exclusivist position? And does it even matter what we believe?
To be continued...
erin- you make so many great points. i'm just going to comment on one- the question of whether the conversation is a moot one. i have to say no. not because i think we're going to find the answer, but because our willingness to ask the question speaks of our humanity at a time when a lot of the world thinks of christians as poorly programmed idiot robots.
ReplyDeleteso, yes, we must have the conversation in love and with patience and not with hatred, dogma, or too much certainty.
"Are all religions and spiritualities equally true and equally valid ways to experience and relate deity, however we might understand it?"
ReplyDeleteAs I read your above statement Erin, this question, in the opposite direction, popped into my head. What if none of them are right? Then what?
I was pondering exactly the same thing yesterday, thinking about how it looks from the perspective of people of other faiths, and how unfair it is that the majority of the world would be "wrong".
ReplyDeleteBut then I was thinking, maybe it's not like that? Maybe each religion has a piece of the elephant, so to speak? I was thinking this in relation to Buddhism, because my cousin and I are planning on going to a Buddhism meditation centre, and I am at the stage now where the only reason I wouldn't go personally is if I felt that uncomfortable spirit twinge thing. But apart from that, I feel free to go, and free to see God living through Buddhists as well as Christians and Muslims and Hindus and atheists and whatever.
'Cause I don't care what anyone says, I defy them to tell me that the peace Buddhists experience is a counterfeit peace. I think the peace they experience is the peace that they are tapping into because it's just there, the peace that He gives not as the world gives, ya know? I think it's so bloody free that it's lying all over the ground.
I love all these questions you are asking, they just rock, you know? And I know they are rocking your boat stormishly, and mine, and so many other people but I just really really really think that the storms are all worth it somehow, even though they suck royally.
Anyway, sorry for rabbitting on so again :)
A very good post. Thank-you for stretching my mind today. This may prod my sermon (talk) into a different direction that I am giving on Wed.
ReplyDeleteI think these are tough questions. Of course, I also think that these questions are just the tip of the iceberg. According to a good friend of mine, following these questions eventually leads to some fundamental differences between various faiths. In fact, they're so fundamental, that said friend often had trouble getting his other friends in seminary to really grasp them. It almost requires temporarily taking on a completely different perspective than the one we're so used to that we don't even notice it.
ReplyDeleteAs an aside, I will just say that when you have a friend that's willing to spend a specific portion of their "alternate religions" coursework in seminary learning about your religion, you know you have a keeper. ;)
Just my $.02 : I don't even WANT to understand grace. I guess I spent too long, in my religious robe, trying to get all the answers, and I'm just tired of that. I simply want to know LOVE; and so far, I've learned His name is Father. That's about as far as I can go right now!
ReplyDeleteWow, that sounds like a pretty cool place to park your butt for a decade or two, FS :)
ReplyDeleteWow, great conversation here. The wi-fi is working at our vacation place, so I'll be around, but as I am spending time with my family, please forgive my slowness to respond.
ReplyDeleteCindy - I want to have this discussion and not be a robot, but the robots I'd like to have this discussion with me are suspicious of me because I'm NOT a robot, and those who aren't robots think I AM a robot. Go figure.
ReplyDeleteBut yes, it's not so much about finding THE answer as it is about the seeking it.
Mike - Hmmm...yeah I've thought about that, but then isn't that the same thing as pluralism...saying that for each of us our religion is right for us, our best understanding is enough for us personally....but that there isn't one that is RIGHT? Or are you saying maybe it would be better to abandon the seeking of God through any religion?
ReplyDeleteSue - I have thought about the elephant theory as well...but then we have to butt heads with the fact that all the world's major religions are exclusivist in their own right... even if Christians say that Buddhists and Muslims and Hindus or what-have-you all have a piece of the puzzle, will they all say the same about Christians? And then, even if not, does it matter?
ReplyDeleteAnd that "uncomfortable spirit twinge" thing is key for me, too.
Jeff - Thank you and you're welcome. What's your sermon about?
ReplyDeleteJarred - You said "following these questions eventually leads to some fundamental differences between various faiths."
ReplyDeleteCare to elaborate on that at all? What would be the fundamental differences? You mean about how other religions view other religions?
Free Spirit - I agree. I often don't want to know either, it makes my head hurt.
ReplyDeleteBut this specifically has been on my mind....to be honest I'm at a point where it's neither here nor there to me, what religion a person practices...but then, am I really a christian anymore?
Erin:
ReplyDeleteI was given the topic and then I get to run with it.
The topic is the following:
Loving Jesus through your actions.
I am going to use Matthew 25:31-46
I am skipping hell/fire/brimstone and focusing on the actions (act of love)
The angle and scope is going to stretch beyound christianity
Thanks Jeff....I'd be interested in hearing where you go with all that...post on it, if you wouldn't mind.
ReplyDeleteBeen awhile since I've posted here...thanks for the topic Erin.
ReplyDeleteSomething that has plagued my mind for some time is the question 'what are we saved from?’ Is it ONLY death or are there a plethora of things we are saved from?
Since the beginning, it seems we humans have always known we are guilty of something. We spend a lot of time and energy trying to alleviate our guilty consciences. We link our misfortunes in life to this sense of guilt. We make deals with our unseen Creator to get rid of this cause of all our problems. We try to get Him to reward us for our gifts and services to Him. Is this where religions come from? Maybe Jesus offers us salvation from the guilt that seeds all the religions of the world? Maybe if I put our trust in Jesus, if I let Him take care of my guilt problem, THEN I will be free to get back to the business of living with and loving those around me without the drag of religion. This sounds good to me after wasting so much of my life trying to appease God. Now I can use those once wasted energies and resources to better love the people God put in my life, this I’ve heard is pleasing to Him.
Rich - Good to see you!
ReplyDeleteYou make some great points. They goes along with my idea that when Jesus said "It is finished" he actuallymeant it...that if we put faith in him, we no longer have to worry...he took care of it so we don't have to...so we, like you said, can go about the business of loving and caring for others without always being afraid we will trip up and break the "rules".
Erin,
ReplyDeleteI'll try to elaborate, but I'm not sure how well I will do. To be honest, I have half a mind to ask my friend, James, if he'd be willing to pop in and comment.
According to him, many of the differences (at least between Christianity and my own faith) boil down to significant differences in what one believes about the nature of God. He points out that ideas such as sin, holiness, and even salvation are all wrapped up in the Christian understanding of who God is. Once you look at a religion that has a different understanding of the nature of the Divine, many of those concepts become completely foreign.
I'm inclined to agree with him. For example, my faith has no concept of salvation. There's simply nothing to be saved from. (As an aside, this is why I asked on the previous post as to whether grace and salvation were synonymous, because I can actually appreciate a certain, wider, understanding of the concept of grace.)
Also, I'd note that our faiths have very different takes on the importance and nature on the afterlife. That is to say, my faith actually views the "afterlife" as more of a "rest stop" between incarnations than an eternal destination.
This is why when you originally asked me about what responses you might get to the assertion that "Your religion is fine for you here on earth, but in the end, my religion will save you to heaven," my initial thought was to say, "bafflement." There are just a number of words in the proposed statement that make no sense in the context of some religions.
Don't care if I'm right. I am just sure of the rightness of what I have found.
ReplyDeleteJarred - Yeah, I get ya. There are some substantive differences, and some of what I've believed about the nature of God (divinity), salvation and the afterlife really annoy me. It's interesting to me to hear what others believe. So then tell me, what do YOU think. Are all religions right?
ReplyDeleteAnd your last sentence is precisely why I can't embrace universalism. The only thing it solves is the idea of hell for Christians...it clears our consciences. But in the bigger picture it seems foolish. We can't say "all paths lead to the same place" (heaven) because not all paths believe in heaven.
But then, I don't know the answer...because it would seem that my path, if not exclusive would have to be pluralist.
I think that takes me to what Nate says in the next comment.
Nate - So in your mind does religious pluralism reconcile with Jesus? I think Jon said something I understood to be to that effect in his last post...do you agree?
ReplyDeleteSay, if what I have found is completely right for me, then is what Jarred has found (he's a witch) right for him? And to what end? Does that mean you and I will go to heaven and Jarred will reincarnate (or whatever he believes to happen after death), or will Jarred end up in heaven too? And if that gives you or I peace (because we want to share eternity with all our friends and families), is that belief an insult to Jarred's own beliefs? I.e. maybe he doesn't WANT to come to our heaven when he dies. So does God (our God) save him to heaven against his will? Or is he left to his understanding of what happens after death, and us to ours? Is it all the same end in the end, the same elephant and I just see the ear and Jarred sees the foot?
I'm just trying to sort this out...and I'm using Jarred as an example, because since I've already been talking with him about this stuff, I don't think he minds ;-)
I know I'm trying to get my mind around something I can't, but I can't help myself but to try right now.
Maybe it's like a giant lotto thing, and we all go into a big draw, and whatever belief system gets drawn out we have to enter into that.
ReplyDeleteOr maybe NONE of them are right and we are ALL somewhere else, and all of the other religions get somehow used in this place for ... whatever?
Or maybe some tiny little group of 7 people in the middle of Bogota have got it right, and the rest of us are going to get pulverised in the Flying Spaghetti Monster's pasta making machine.
I totally understand the need to ask not-answerable (sometimes) questions.
Sue, you and I are on the same wave, sister. I was just thinking about you and reading the last e-mail you sent me, and thinking, well, at least I will still have ONE friend when I write the next post ;-)
ReplyDeleteI have to think that God gets it about people being born into a religion...that's a given to me...but then only to the point that a person has no other choice in their culture...or for anyone? Not sure.
Dude, I really do have ideas about what I think is gonna happen, but it feels different to me these days. I don't feel like I need to know anymore for the sake of my own salvation or anything to do with my stuff, except for the fact that I will be entering into it. I dunno it's weird. I think all those giant wrestling sessions with needing to know and with trying to suss it all out seem to have plateaued out into some kind of ... well, plateau where I can sit and think, "Alright. I don't know but God does" and actually really seriously truly be okay with that. It's quite mind boggling, really. I never really thought it would ever happen I guess.
ReplyDeleteBut gee, the questioning and the not knowing and the willingness to sit in the middle of it all feeling the strain and the stress - I'm willing to bet that that ALWAYS yields up good stuff.
PS: I reckon God gets all of it. All the mess the blood the fucked-upedness, the atheism, the Hinduism, the Rastafarianism, the FSMism - even, by God, the Christianity ;)
ReplyDeleteI reckon he has to get all of it, cause if he doesn't he's a pissant God who doesn't deserve the title.
But I reckon he does :)
honestly, i'm just not sure what happens after we die. i have my own thoughts, but i can't say for sure that it is true because i've never been there. i just take what brings me peace, and i take it on faith. even the old assumption that "it will all make sense when we die" is a statement of faith. we truly just don't know.
ReplyDeletewill we all experience the same thing? people like to think so. but since we are all so different, how could one singular place be heaven for all of us? i am quite sure that what would be a heaven for me would be quite hell for many others. and i'm not really interested in that. they'd ruin the party and it would be hard to hear the music over all the whining...
yet i know that i ignore thousands of exclusivist religious claims daily. each one claiming exclusive rightness with any deviation leading towards damnation. that is at the heart of almost all religions. and perhaps on purpose.
what if god revealed himself differently to different peoples and told them to guard it viciously, as has been done, for this precise moment in history? what if each piece needed to be guarded until we lived in a day and age where we could actually meet, sit down together, and put the pieces together? what if revelation is not about a complete picture from the past that needs to be continued, but rather a process of becoming that is nearing its culmination?
Oooh, Jon, I like what you're saying here :) So wide-ranging the vision extends pure over the horizon :)
ReplyDeleteI must admit I find the whole idea of "heaven" to be quite silly, really. I mean, I know the bible talks about it, but why do we hardly ever seem to focus on all the verses about a renewed earth? That sounds much more interesting to me than childish notions of a place we've never been to before.
Anyway, this is a really intersting discussion :)
Erin with all of those questions, you are just asking for a verbal vomit. Well, I am more than happy to comply.
ReplyDeleteOne of the things that my studies have shown, is that when Jesus died on the cross, one of the benefits was the Truth. Or, the Holy Spirit being given to everyone. Before Jesus died, it was only given to the chosen of God. With the Holy Spirit being given to everyone, this sealed all people to God, and to his judgement. Great for us, not so great for everyone else. Why, because of the white throne judgement. When the sheep and the goats are seperated.
The sheep are the followers, the goats are the independant and defiant ones. Goats were put in with the sheep to protect the sheep. Goats are very antisocial, and attack animals that they feel to be a threat. Such as wolves, and other such scavengers. They do not always follow the shepherd as he would like. So, the goats represent those that have heard, and choose to go their own way, not be followers. Sheep are those that have heard, and choose to follow.
The goats are cast into the lake of fire. Those who are not written in the book of life. Rev. 20. Unfortunately, with all of the inclusion we do here in the blogoshpere, there comes a time, when there is a reckoning. So, those that do not have the works recorded in the book of life will perish. (The works thing is a whole other subject for discussion, and would take up too much room here.)
So, even though there are things that give peace to others, God has sealed all of them unto Himself.
Just to throw more fuel on the fires, there are places in the bible, I can't remember where, that God makes mention of other gods. So, there really could be some power out there that Jarred is tapping into, but to our way of thinking, our God is the supreme God. If that is the case, Jarred will still have to go through our God's judgement.
thanks for the vote of confidence, sue. i think the bible speaks more of the kingdom of god than it does "heaven." i could be wrong on this one, having never done a comprehensive study. but i do know that the kingdom is here and now. and i quite agree that we do not focus on our beautiful future of a renewed earth nearly as much as we ought. it is a good cure for depression...
ReplyDeletenate, you bring up some interesting passages. (i am curious as to where you got your sheep and goat definitions...)
both passages: the sheep and the goats (matt25:31-46) and the white throne (rev20:11-15) have to do with judgement. interesting to me is that both times, beliefs are never mentioned. in matt, it is those who visit the sick, clothe the naked, feed the hungry, shelter the homeless,etc. who are considered sheep and "enter into the master's rest." those who do not are considered goats.
also, at the white throne, it says we are judged according to "what our deeds deserve."
jesus said elsewhere that the entire law is summed up in this - do unto others as you would have them do unto you. how often is that the benchmark of our actions? how often i see gays, lesbians, metalheads, potheads, hippies, satanists and other nefarious ilk living by this principle.
hmmmm..... “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you."
Wow you guys got some great conversation here. I'm not going to respond individually because to be honest I'd have too much to say.
ReplyDeleteNate, you seem to be reluctant to include people who are being kind to others but who aren't following Jesus? I just want to clarify...because I really struggle to believe that anymore. But your thoughts are helpful to me, too.
What Jon said in the last comment leads well into my next post on the issue....one I'm scared to publish, but unfortunately (or fortunately) it's where I'm at....
Are we really separated, sheep from goats, simply by how we treat others?
Hmm... chewing on this, myself. I was raised with a very emphatic YES but....
ReplyDelete"When outsiders who have never heard of God's law follow it more or less by instinct, they confirm its truth by their obedience. They show that God's law is not something alien, imposed on us from without, but woven into the very fabric of our creation. There is something deep within them that echoes God's yes and no, right and wrong. Their response to God's yes and no will become public knowledge on the day God makes his final decision about every man and woman. The Message from God that I proclaim through Jesus Christ takes into account all these differences." Romans 2:14-16 (Message)
So..... we serve a very big God. What He keeps bringing me back to is that it is all about the heart...... and that is something He is more qualified to judge than I am. ;-)
Katherine - You are right, in my explorations I am finding it's all about the heart - as in what motivates us to be who we are and to do the things we do.
ReplyDeleteWell Erin, The tenets of Salvation that I know at the moment are, repentence, or changing one's mind. Confession, or agreeing with God. Obedience-doing what God asks. Faith in God. Faith in Grace provided by Jesus.
ReplyDeleteNow as to those that are very intuitive and follow God by listening to the Holy Spirit all the time. No idea. Because, what about the Muslims that dedicate their lives to God, our God, and follow Him devotedly their whole life. Even though they reject Jesus as a savior. Will God reject them offereing themselves up as a daily sacrifice to Him? Not the God I envision. That would go for the Catholics, Jews, Ba Hai, and all of the other off shoots that believe in our God. If they truly dedicate themselves to our God, that is what he is really looking for. And with God, the only thing that I do know, is that there are no absolutes with Him. He asks people to do some whacky stuff, even stuff contradictory to what he said in the recent past.