In my readings and travels (online) I have found something that probably won't surprise many of you:
We seem to be always waffling between either going it alone or trying somehow to fit into existing institutions, as if those were the only two options. Why is this? Isn't there a third place? Another way?
To me, going it alone is rife with pitfalls and we must constantly be on the lookout for vultures who will eat us alive or winches who will try to reel us back into church. On the other hand, I would just as soon try to fit my spirituality into a Mosque (no offense to any Muslim readers) as to go back into a church, because both are equally wrong for me. I am as far away from being an evangelical as I am from being a Muslim; we believe in the same God (in my opinion), but our practices of that faith are very different.
I do have another option: I can begin attending the Unitarian Universalist church that is a few blocks from my house. Many of my neighbors go there. But again, it's still a box, and I'm not a bona-fide universalist, either. As I've said before, I don't want religion without Jesus, I want Jesus without religion.
So what I see is like this: over at Jon's blog, Something Else, we've been playing Apples to Apples for almost a week, and we have found beautiful community there. We have laughed and been entertained...and I'm thinking, why have we never done this before? Because blogs are all more centered on discussion, which is valid and valuable, but something we've all been missing is a sense of, well, FUN!
Which is really very much what we all want in real life. Not a church, but a community that shares Jesus in common. We want Apples to Apples and potlucks without being told how to follow Christ. We want to have freedom AND family...why is it we cannot have something that is both? Something that doesn't require a doctrinal statement to create or a creed to join, but that affirms Jesus as the center of our earthly universe? Something that is more like Disneyland than a denomination?
I see a structure with movable walls and a welcome sign, with as many wide open spaces as candles and communion wafers. With a revolving door and a revolving menu. A place where we aspire to live urban mission, even though our homes are in suburbia and we aren't very good at it. A place where we know "To try" is half the battle, and sometimes it's enough. A place where we find ways to get our hands dirty, but we don't always have to. A place to gather, without a boundary to define it.
A place where the fact that life is a roller-coaster is a GOOD thing.
OK, I will concede, I'm sure it exists, somewhere. I'm also sure I'm idealistic, there's no doubt about that.
What I see is a definite need...now, how do we make it happen? Because the thing is, in real life I don't really know how to connect with people in my area who are like me in this way. I have all of you and I treasure you, and yes, we can play Apples to Apples...and if this need was very easily met, we likely would not have met each other here among the magic I's and O's of the intangible universe. So in that, it's a good thing.
But there is a hunger in so many of us, there has to be a way to find it, to create it, to meet the people in our communities who share our dream, to gather with them.
Now, how?
There needs to be another space, a place for us.
Not a church, but not NOT a church. Ya dig?
Not a church, but not NOT a church. Ya dig?
We seem to be always waffling between either going it alone or trying somehow to fit into existing institutions, as if those were the only two options. Why is this? Isn't there a third place? Another way?
To me, going it alone is rife with pitfalls and we must constantly be on the lookout for vultures who will eat us alive or winches who will try to reel us back into church. On the other hand, I would just as soon try to fit my spirituality into a Mosque (no offense to any Muslim readers) as to go back into a church, because both are equally wrong for me. I am as far away from being an evangelical as I am from being a Muslim; we believe in the same God (in my opinion), but our practices of that faith are very different.
I do have another option: I can begin attending the Unitarian Universalist church that is a few blocks from my house. Many of my neighbors go there. But again, it's still a box, and I'm not a bona-fide universalist, either. As I've said before, I don't want religion without Jesus, I want Jesus without religion.
So what I see is like this: over at Jon's blog, Something Else, we've been playing Apples to Apples for almost a week, and we have found beautiful community there. We have laughed and been entertained...and I'm thinking, why have we never done this before? Because blogs are all more centered on discussion, which is valid and valuable, but something we've all been missing is a sense of, well, FUN!
Which is really very much what we all want in real life. Not a church, but a community that shares Jesus in common. We want Apples to Apples and potlucks without being told how to follow Christ. We want to have freedom AND family...why is it we cannot have something that is both? Something that doesn't require a doctrinal statement to create or a creed to join, but that affirms Jesus as the center of our earthly universe? Something that is more like Disneyland than a denomination?
I see a structure with movable walls and a welcome sign, with as many wide open spaces as candles and communion wafers. With a revolving door and a revolving menu. A place where we aspire to live urban mission, even though our homes are in suburbia and we aren't very good at it. A place where we know "To try" is half the battle, and sometimes it's enough. A place where we find ways to get our hands dirty, but we don't always have to. A place to gather, without a boundary to define it.
A place where the fact that life is a roller-coaster is a GOOD thing.
OK, I will concede, I'm sure it exists, somewhere. I'm also sure I'm idealistic, there's no doubt about that.
What I see is a definite need...now, how do we make it happen? Because the thing is, in real life I don't really know how to connect with people in my area who are like me in this way. I have all of you and I treasure you, and yes, we can play Apples to Apples...and if this need was very easily met, we likely would not have met each other here among the magic I's and O's of the intangible universe. So in that, it's a good thing.
But there is a hunger in so many of us, there has to be a way to find it, to create it, to meet the people in our communities who share our dream, to gather with them.
Now, how?
89 comments:
Hmm... Yeah.
When you find it, tell me how?
what you describe sounds like paradise. I don't know, I think it may be elusive, unattainable.
Don't I sound like the cynic? I want it to but I don't know how to make it happen. Especially here, in the Bible belt, where I don't think there can ever be Jesus without the church.
I tried it out of the building and it didn't work either. I was still saying, there has to be more than this ... the same statement that led me out of the church.
So, we went back in. There we are, trying to figure it out, how to love and live with the body of Christ and how to join them in making a difference in the world.
But, I love your vision and I long for it and in many ways, I hope that is what Heaven is like.
And you live in Portland, OR (so does my cousin, not that that matters), which seems to be somewhat of a center-point for people thinking this way. So if you can't find it (or make it happen) there, think how hard it is to find/do it in the middle-of-nowhere that is Jefferson City, MO. Nigh impossible.
Katherine - Will do! ;-)
Cynthia - I know, it's idealistic. I'd settle for something along the lines. I just can't bring myself to dive in again. Maybe I'll end up holding out forever. Maybe it will come together. I don't know.
Jim - Portland (and Oregon) is a hub of non-religious spirituality. In that sense, yes. But it seems that most Jesus people still opt for "church". Then we have the pagans, the new-agers, the Deadheaders, the granolas, the artisans, the protesters, and the environmentalists. And most people around here are a blend, not adhering to any one thing specifically. We are the least-churched, but I would say far from the least spiritual.
I sympathize with you...but in some ways it would seem to me that in places that have a higher rate of *actual* Christians it would be easier....I don't know.
Good luck in finding or creating such a community. It sounds like a beautiful idea.
Erin ~
Your vision and one that Grace posted a while back have my head spinning. I feel compelled to say, I think you will have to start it. Maybe, it means having a re-occurring party with friends, neighbors, acquaintances, friends' friends, etc. I have found that parties have a strange sort of healing affect on me. So, I am for more parties!
Ironically, Saturday evening we had a game night (something new for us) and Patty invited some work friends and our son and daughter-in-law. We had a little pulled pork and some other stuff that people brought over, some beer, wine, and Coke-a-cola. and we played Apples-To-Apples all evening. It was great fun!
Maybe there is more to community and mission than parties, but I think it definitely part of the picture.
Girl - you speak for so many of us! This is exactly how (I think) many of us feel, I know its how I feel.
HOW? I don't know how either....
Erin, I wanted to contact you via email, but don't see that as an option on your blog....if you wouldn't mind shooting me an email, there's something I'd like to say, but not in a public place :). If not, I understand! mtinternet at gmail dot com.
Thanks, Tracy
Jarred - Yeah, it sounds nice. I wish...
You oughta post sometime on what spiritual community is like for you. I'd be interested to know.
Glenn - I know, maybe we will have to do it. I feel so inept at the moment, but maybe that will change.
I do think "parties" are part of the equation that is missing. In our small group that was more like family than church, we still felt like we had to have a purpose and have prayer teaching and stuff when we met together, even for fun...and sometimes I think that kinda makes everyone feel like they are in a box again. If that makes sense.
Barbara - So if I build it, will you come? ;-)
Hi Tracy - Sure! My e-mail address is on my About page, but I'll shoot you one, too.
Erin/Glenn,
There's a great chapter in "So You Don't Want To Go To Church Any More" about parties and get togethers and not turning those into having a "purpose" and hence becoming "church". Friendship for friendship's sake is part of community.
Thanks Jim! It's been awhile since I read that and I forgot about that. I really do need to reread it...keep reminding me.
Erin & Jim ~
I just ordered that book.
I think "spiritual" conversations come up naturally among friends. I am so used to the programmed context that I have to sort of learn how to have a "normal spiritual conversation" where the other person initiates the topic. Certainly, learning to listen and ask questions is a big part of it.
I think we learn and grow by just doing life with other people and sharing experiences. It refreshes our souls because we are made for relationships (not programs).
Erin, I may just give that a try! Thought I have to admit it's a pretty tall order.
Glenn - I agree about spiritual conversations coming up no matter what. But I'll tell you, having a "program" is still very innate in me, and I wasn't even a Pastor. I still have to be conscious not to slip back into old paradigms where I know what's what but I'll be miserable.
Jarred - I hope you do. Really.
the church I grew up in, a whole slew of us went camping together for a week every summer. We fished. We swam. We played cards and board games. The kids ran in packs all week and ate too much candy and we rubbed shoulders at the sink brushing our teeth at night. Some of my dearest memories from growing up are from these weeks of family camp, and I'm sure that that's part of what cemented our church.
I wish I could find that kind of community too. Blogging is fine, but it's not the same as real-life community.
Most of the people I know (all of them, as far as I'm aware) are either in the church or out of it. I don't know anyone else apart from me and my wife who has a foot in both camps, so to speak.
Such a good conversation. Wow, I'm going to think on this for a while more. May have something tomorrow.
Sara - I would suspect you are right. Things like that don't happen in churches as much as they used to, I think. Oh, they have women's retreat and summer camp for the kids, but not so much for families. At least in the big churches I have been a part of.
Barry - Yeah, it's good for us all to meet like mined people on the net, but in the end what we want has to be tangible. I wish I knew more people who were like this and lived around here. I'm sure they exist, I just don't know how to find them.
You don't have to contribute anything, Barb, it is good just to know you're here.
Erin my heart echos your desire for something more. Authentic spiritual community with Christ lifted high.
I think it's not so much the venue as the spiritual atmosphere. When the atmosphere is condusive to the fruit of the spirit, there is freedom. Freedom from fear, oppresion, lies, control, etc. all those things that erode a community.
yes - playing apples to apples has been fun and a light hearted distraction from my work for me during the day. I have been asking myself why there is such a great spiritual community in blogging and I think one of the reasons is that we each show a window into our own heart with our blogs so when we interact with one another the barriers are down.
Ruth, you are absolutely right about the atmosphere.
Some people say blogging is selfish because we interact with each other on our own terms....but I think it's been incredibly helpful for me. It is a community.
Just getting to gether is the start of community. If you have people that you know that have given up on church, just have a game night and get together. Don't worry about an agenda. Communities do not have to be based on anything other than people that get along.
Nate - I wish it were that easy. Truth is, I don't KNOW anyone in real life who has given up on church. It's just me and my family. I know they are out there, but where?
Yeah, dude, I'm hanging for that too, but it's been 7 years so far and nothin'. I know there are other likemindeds around but am I meeting them? Naw. It's almost as if God is intentionally keeping us away from each other sometimes ... maybe there's things for us to learn in our own deserts before he brings us back together (can you tell I've bene listening to the latest God Journey podcast)?
I don't know, dude. I really really roolly roolly don't know.
I so relate.
I just seems like it shouldn't be this way.
shrug...
Sue - I know...I mean I know that you don't know, because I don't know either. You could be right, maybe we are too broken to meet and need some repairs...
Rhonda - You would think it should be easier....dunno.
No surprise that this post elicits a huge response. The need, the hunger is so strong.
Another wrinkle in this puzzle is how to create this space/place in a way that is inviting for different generations, lifestyles, races, etc.
You know how strongly I feel about this dream. But I confess that after years of seeking this, I am losing hope.
When I find what I think is a pocket of freedom in faith, I most often find that it's just a superficial thing. I am not looking for complimentarians and inerrantists who happen to have tats and piercings and listen to loud music during church services.
I am looking for genuine community.
I am not looking for a house church where a blatant hierarchy sets in and before long programs and policies spring up. I am not automatically against structure, it's just that so often it's designed to make the leaders more comfortable rather than to allow the Spirit the freedom to move.
Are we humans too flawed to design and develop a community of organized chaos where love of God and others is the guiding factor?
Is the idea of a community that respects diversity too radical of an idea? Is it too idealistic?
If it isn't, then where can it happen? Does it have to be an urban setting? Does it have to be aimed primarily at people aged 18-30? Does it have to turn into a pastor-centric structure?
I could go on, but I done that before elsewhere.
Keep dreaming and asking questions, Erin! You have a good heart, an insightful mind, and a strong voice.
How? I didn't even touch that question in my previous comment, did I? I'll give it some more thought and post about it on my blog. I have some ideas about how NOT to do it, if nothing else.
Gary said: "Are we humans too flawed to design and develop a community of organized chaos where love of God and others is the guiding factor?"
Yes, I think we are. Which sounds terribly cynical, but I really don't believe we can design anything that doesn't end up congealing into yet another controlling system. Seems like we're a bit too fearful and egotistical and manipulative to do anything but.
I still have this idealistic notion that He should be putting the pieces together, not us. However, I am getting a bit tired of his "one day is as a thousand years" deal. I've been out the backside of the desert for 7 years now - and then I think about how Moses was stuck out there for 25. God isn't in any sort of a hurry, which is quite irritating :)
Sorry for soapboxing :)
Erin, here are some of my thoughts on the matter, for what they're worth. I'll spread them over a few comments to make them more bite-sized.
First of all, I am writing this because I have had this dream for a long time. I am writing because I have spent countless hours on it. And I write because everything I have done has resulted in failure before the boat left the dock. So I write as one who knows what NOT to do. But I think that in learning more about what doesn’t work, I can make some educated guesses about what might work. But remember, listening to me is even more foolish than following a recipe from someone who have read lots of cookbooks, but never actually baked a cake.
Why?
Why do YOU want to do this thing? Recognize that no one ever approaches anything with pure motives. No one comes without personal baggage. That’s ok, as long as YOU acknowledge it up front and take steps to keep it from sabotaging your efforts.
- What personal needs are not being met?
- What social needs are not being met?
- What spiritual needs are not being met?
- What physical, social, and spiritual needs are not being met in your world?
Is your vision, combined with your own personal sense of need, and your sense of calling, great enough to overcome obstacles, opposition, failure, confrontation, etc.
continued . . .
Know What You Want
I believe it is essential to have a clear idea of what ideals are motivating you to move forward. Often these ideals become clear when we identify which goals they are not. This may seem to contradict what I said in the previous point, but here I am talking about exploring things that could be and seeing which ones simply don’t fit.
Where is God in all of this?
I don’t know about you, but I get all worked up about these sort of things and then I get impatient and then I start planning. After a while (months sometimes) it dawns on me that I haven’t involved God in any of this for quite a while. I rationalize it by saying that I have a sense of calling from God, or that what I am doing is about His Kingdom purposes. But all too soon it becomes about my purposes, my needs, my ego. Aaacckkkkk! I hate it when that happens.
So, this has to come out of the heart of a deep, personal, dynamic, mystical relationship with God. It has to come from a sense that God is talking to me, that He is involved in this process. Otherwise this becomes another amalgamation of theories being acted out by dysfunctional people in an inhospitable environment against incredible odds.
continued . . .
Don’t go it alone.
This has to be a shared vision. Whether your travelling companions come from family, friends, or from the street, I don’t believe a solo effort will succeed. First of all, if you cannot find one other person who shares your dream, then how in the world do you expect that you can find enough people for a community. Secondly, the required investment of time and spiritual, emotional, and physical energy (and some finances) virtually demand that people with a shared vision support one another in this effort. Otherwise, when obstacles appear, often like a huge ocean wave, it can be easy to lose hope and become demoralized. A burden shared with another is a burden halved, or something like that.
Look Ahead
We must work toward a positive vision of the future, rather than reacting to negative experiences of the past. In my experience, it is so very easy to let wounds from the past undermine our vision of the future. I believe this is very dangerous. We must be aware of them, but we can only use them to inform our choices, not drive them.
continued . . .
Don’t Plan Too Much
I tend to be a Type-A planner. I want to anticipate all of the contingencies and be prepared for them. Sometimes that’s the best approach. But in something like this it runs counter to how God seems to work. He is interested in us being wise and good stewards of our time and resources, but He is not at all interested in us running the show. Faith is about trusting Him. And that often means that we don’t know what the next step should be. I believe that God asks us to come to Him in our helplessness, asking in faith for Him to guide and provide. I believe that this pleases Him. And it is totally contrary to my natural instincts. As a person who has a difficult time trusting God, this step is one area where I have failed. But God has been working on that for the past couple years. Part of what made that possible was a lot of failure trying to do it my way. I’ve eaten a lot of metaphorical sand falling flat on my face.
Start Where You Are
Especially if you are not sure what or why God is building this dream in your heart and mind, reach out to others who you even suspect might share your thoughts. Pray that God will bring like-minded people alongside you. Pray that God will build a core group. (But don’t let that core group fossilize into the inner clique as you grow.)
Begin to reach out on Craig’s List or Meet-up.com or social networks. Be creative and think of a hundred ways that I cannot even imagine.
continued . . .
Anticipate Resistance
Never be surprised when a good idea which challenges the status quo meets with resistance. You may be told that your approach is unbiblical, that your values are un-American, that you are antisocial, that you are a danger to the community, etc. And all of those things may come from one family member. But even worse than that is the well-intentioned evangelical who hears about your community, comes, and tries to turn it into a Bible Study or a Church, or the well-intentioned social activist who feels that all of your efforts have to be directed toward a single social need. Or, it could be a like-minded person who is insensitive, or domineering in conversations. Envision how will you deal with those issues, recognizing that when they arise they will be twice as complicated as you thought they could be.
What has worked?
Are there groups that you would like to eventually emulate as you grow? Can you contact them and begin a networking relationship with them?
My apologies for pontificating in your comments, Erin. But at least you know that I did take your question seriously. I'm done rambling now.
Wow. Gary. OK, so I'm exhausted this evening, we spent the day in the gorge. I promise tomorrow I will come back and pay your comments the respect they deserve. I always appreciate your insight, I'm just too tired to focus tonight.
I emailed this to Erin, but after all the comments here, I figured I'd post it here as well. Check out www.thriven.org as a possible option. It's not my ministry or anything like that, so it's not why I'm posting it here :-).
We've just started a small group here using this as a guideline. I'll let you know how it goes--whether it's great or a disaster or somewhere in between. One thing I do know: It's already bringing out the REAL in us, nothing fake or surface going on here. That's a great first step in my book. I cannot take any more fake relational surface stuff!
My problem is that, since my bad experiences in full-time ministry, I haven't felt comfortable in the fellowship of churches of which I am a part. The real problem is that my wife can't accept me going somewhere else, and wouldn't come along. I know exactly where I would go, crazy as it seems in my more lucid moments, but it just isn't possible. So I am doing the best I can with where I am.
Maybe I'll be blessed. Either the group I'm with will come along for the journey, or kick me out. Either way it would be a win, though I'd prefer the former over the latter.
Ok my first comment is going to be to Adam: talk to Gary. If you two don't know each other, let me introduce you. Gary, Adam. Adam, Gary. Because I've heard Gary say those same words about knowing what he wants but having his wife not be in agreement.
Because, see, the one thing I have going for me is that my husband and I are on the same page...not necessarily theologically, but the fact that the church is broken for us and we need to find or create another way.
So Gary. Hehe, I knew you'd have a few things to say about this ;-)
Umm...your insight is very helpful...because knowing what doesn't work is halfway to finding what DOES work.
See here's my thing, because I'm opposite of you...I hate planning. I have found in my life that things I work my ass off at planning generally don't turn out any better than things I barely plan at all. Birthday parties. Vacations. Blog posts...
So I am really, really good at being patient with God, because I have found the things I let God make happen are exponentially better than things I try to plan myself. I believe that if God wants something to happen, it will require little effort of me, except to step into whatever happens.
However, there are obvious drawbacks to this. I am very good at sitting around visioneering about something...and sitting...and sitting...and sitting. And then as Sue says, in her 7 years it still hasn't come about. (Hi Sue!) It's been 3 years for me, so I'm just getting started.
Is there a balance between A and B? I'm sure there is, I don't know where to find it.
So then Barb posts today about your question "Are we humans too flawed" to make this happen?
Yes, of course we are. Only God can make it happen. That might sound far more righteous and humble than I really am...except that I know it's true. I don't know anything about God's timing..the where the when the how. I only know that God makes things happen.
That's not to intend any kind of slam against what you've tried, Gary. Because I know it takes all types and many people take exception to my nonchalant methods. Again, balance.
There is so much conversation going on about this now, and on some levels, like Barb asks, even IF we (bloggers) all could somehow meet up would it really work like we think it will? Probably not, because we all only put forth on our blogs what we want people to hear. I don't share everything about my beliefs, not because they are secret, but because I only try to write what might be helpful to others...but then I hold part of myself back and is that right? I don't know.
So then we are back to square one. No one is ever completely transparent. We are too human for that. Which is on some levels what we are all trying to escape.
But I like to think that if we are honest about our measure of hiding from one another, we are on the right track. If we say "I am transparent" and are not, we are liars. If we say "I am not transparent, but I try to be" we then are only human.
Umm..I had another thought...where did it go?
I think we are best when watching and listening for what God is doing...not to be trite...but being willing to walk into whatever we see already happening rather than trying to make it happen.
And as far as what you say about if I don't know anyone else who feels like I do, then how could I ever think I could start something. I don't know. Thing is, I know and believe they are out there, I just don't know how to find them. If there are so many of you who are like me, there have to be more.
In an nutshell, I don't know. But I do think through all our collective talking about it, a way will eventually take shape. Idealistic, sure. But hopeful.
And I do believe God places desires in our hearts. We just have to wait and see what he plans to do with them.
Tracy - I definitely think what you are doing could be the answer to what some people are looking for. Thanks very much for sharing it.
For anyone who is thinking they might want to start something, look at the stuff Tracy mentioned. Something Jonathan Brink has developed.
www.thriven.org
Erin ~ It seems like there is good deal of anxiety about the risks involved in real community. Would we like each other? Is God in this? Can we pull it off? In the back of our minds, I think we know that God designed us for community and that it is both beautiful and messy. What do we do with the fear factor?
Yep, Glenn, those are the questions of the day.
If you're not following the post at Barb's (that I referenced in my comment to Gary right above), you should check it out. There's a lot more there about our fears and such...
For me it has so much to do with the fact that my "family" walked away from when things got ugly and people needed them most. So that's a HUGE fear for me. Where can I find a place where people aren't scared of REAL life, with ALL it's possible ugliness? Is there really such a thing?
Because so much of what I hear about people and fears and community being "family" and being "real" with each other and supporting each other through anything is NOT coming from people who had a "family" where when we really "got real", it turned out that in a group of 12, more than one someone was on meth, more than one someone had an affair (past and actively), someone was an alcoholic (actively) and someone had an active gambling addiction...
Whoops...we had no idea how broken we really were until we "got real", and some people couldn't cope. Suddenly "getting real" and having "family" didn't look so good to those who didn't fall into the above categories. That was the point of breakdown. And I was simply a casualty of war caught in the crossfire for loving on the hurting people.
Now my perception that this kind of thing doesn't happen to other people is based on what I personally have heard in conversations...maybe it really DOES happen to other people, but then why is no one talking about it? Or how to fix it?
Is it possible to have a place where breakdown doesn't happen in the midst of the really bad stuff? Because the "We have no idea in hell how to deal with this as a group, so we're done" thing where people get tromped on...well, sucks.
The only place I have ever found that seems to survive that kind of breakdown is the Bridge. However, it's easy for me and my family to feel isolated from that because it's so far from us and most of the people there live in the same community...so it's tough to integrate.
I don't really know where to go with this...but I'll tell you, the conversation is quite encouraging for me. And I certainly don't mean to unload on you, Glenn, that's just what's on my mind now as I follow these conversations.
And that was a "GOOD" Christian group. Hence my absolute passion against the "good" Christian. Because when we really do strip and get real, NONE of us are any good at all, yet we all act shocked at how ugly everyone else really is, because everyone pretends to be so good.
AND that was just the stuff that came to light...which I know wasn't everything...
Sigh.
Erin, you are SO hitting it right on in your comments here!
I've reading up on community and small groups for the past few years. One thing that you find in every single half-decent book is this: For REAL community to develop, the group will encounter CHAOS and must go through it and not run from it (M. Scott Peck, in particular, is brilliant on covering this point, as is Parker Palmer). This, I think, is where the rubber meets the road! Will we, as a group, be willing to face the pure crap that resides in each one us and continue to love and press on through it together?
I think if people know up front that this is part of normal, HEALTHY group life, they would be far less likely to freak out when it happens and just run away. It's why an up-front commitment to one another is so important: It's not an "if" this happens, it's a "when" this happens.
Sadly, there are so few folks around that know how to lead on through the chaos to come out into true community on the other side, and so folks give up, and I understand that.
It's one of the main reasons I like Thrive's materials: They understand the above completely, and aren't expecting anything less than a mess at some point. That's just my cup of tea!
We are all so broken and deeply flawed. The sooner we see it and embrace, the more quickly we can run into Daddy's arms, as an individual and as a group.
Erin,
Still tracking these comments - good thread.
You said, "Where can I find a place where people aren't scared of REAL life, with ALL it's possible ugliness? Is there really such a thing?" Perhaps you can't find people who aren't scared of REAL life, but just those who won't cut and run when it occurs.
What popped into my head is maybe "real" community starts with something like AA (NA, GA, etc.) If the group is predicated on everyone in it being broken in the first place, then there's no surprise about it. Instead, there is real support for getting through the brokeness, understanding when there is backsliding, and celebration when there is progress.
Maybe we should found "Brokens Anonymous" (I wanted to call it "Christians Anonymous" but that would be too provocative and send the wrong message). Somewhere for people who admit to having problems get together to support each other and heal through Christ.
"Hi, my name is Jim, and I am broken."
"Hi, Jim."
[And you're next two comments were great because you were in what I call "Aaaand another thing!" mode! :o) ]
Tracy - I agree that knowing this up front can help. I think maybe, and this is just a personal perception, even though we did (as a group) go into this with the intention of being real, some people got more than they expected. I don't know if this was simply a reaction of shock because in our "good" Christian environment we all led each other to believe we were so "healthy", or whether it shook people because they were afraid and realizing they ought to share their "shit" and there is a lot of fear that goes with that. Probably some of both.
But then we also have to know and accept that we aren't supposed to "fix" each other. Well, we did say that, but when it came down to it people wanted to try to fix each other because, I don't know, how do you find the balance between condoning damaging behavior and being judgmental, trying to fix it?
OK, Jim, I concede that everyone is scared of real life when it happens...I used "scared" in the sense that people will run away from a person who is experiencing "real" life.
So there you go. You've found the key. We need to start a new 12 step program!
Seriously, though. You are on to something...but the church I left was specifically a "healing" church, in other words there were tons of programs for people recovering from sexual abuse, drug addiction, marital infidelity...and still people seemed shocked when some things came to light.
But maybe there needs to be discussion about how real we really are going to be...I have thought maybe we need to decide what's going to happen when (A) is shared ...but how do we do that and not make people scared to share?
Erin,
At this point I will probably reply via a blog post of my own. In fact, I have three of your blog posts in my inbox as "things to post about" that I haven't gotten around to!
Jim - That's cool. I look forward to it.
I posted on this subject on my blog this morning. Thanks for starting another invigorating conversation.
And here you go. Gary, I gave you link love at the end for beating me to the topic, but hey, I'm at work. :o)
Jim and Gary - Awesome. This is so helpful to me just to talk about, I'm glad you two are sharing your perspectives.
Erin ~
Thought I would leave another comment, since you aren't doing any business over here. :-)
I have been through "the truth is stranger than fiction" stuff in my experiences and attempts at community as well and I have done the grieving, and the isolation thing. But I am wondering, if community is too risky, what is the alternative?
We both know that it is beautiful and ugly, fulfilling and messy. Some messiness is inevitable. The question is how will we handle it? I think we can have a redemptive view toward both individual flaws and community, in general.
It seems like fear of failure and pain have induced paralysis. I know everyone is at a different place and I know we need to grieve. But I can't see us giving up on community and pursuing kingdom mission as a community. It's a God thing, not just an obligation, but a core characteristic in the way he made us.
Jim, I am SO going to start a group and call it "Christians Anonymous" That is brilliant!!
"Hi, I'm Barb and I'm a Christian" - (said in a defeated tone)
"Hi Barb" (Says everyone else in the room who totally understand my shame, hurt and brokenness)
Simply brilliant! You made my day
hey erin, as you can tell i am a little late into the conversation, ha! wow, there's a lot of amazing stuff going on through this post. so cool. i love the thought of a 12 step principled anything because honestly the most amazing underground church in the world is AA. that commmunity gets the desperate need for God & each other like none other. and the only thing they do is have folding chairs in a circle and some good guidelines to share. in all of the communities i have ever been a part of, the "real messy authentic" stuff happened "over there" in special groups for special people who had bigger issues than the rest of the church. the refuge is the first time in my christian journey where it was all integrated into one. it is SO HARD for people looking for neat and tidy or inspirational. the stories are too big, the lack of certainty & simple christian platitudes that relieve others is too tough on them. we are also finding after two years in that actually the only thing we are really good at is community & love so we've started to just let go of all the other things we sort of thought we needed to include in our gatherings "just because" and tried to become a more full expression of just who we are. and the reality is that our wednesday eve house of refuge--an eclectic group of about 20 people--is one of the best parts of my week and really there's not much too it. we just eat together & someone facilitates a conversationa bout something that's on their heart in whatever creative or basic way they want. last week we only answered one question "how has your view of God, yourself in relationship to God, shifted over the years?" woah, the sharing was wild and simple and lingered for me all week. i think the reality for some of us--and this is what i'm sensing from all the other comments--is that our only hope was/is to create something on our own. that it really truly is quite rare but not unattainable. just hard to cultivate and grow and nurture especially when we're so gunshy. my heart for you is when you are ready to experiment to go for it & try to create it, something small, real, deep, powerful for those ready to taste some tangible hope again. the more we talk about how scared we all are, the more safe we feel. i am so bummed i'm not in pdx today. maybe next tuesday! xo kathy
ps: gee whiz, i didn't expect it to be so long....
Glen - I agree. I don't want to give up, but so far feel as if I don't have an alternative. Maybe there is something in me that isn't ready or maybe there just hasn't been the right thing. Maybe I'm just being difficult.
Barb - That WAS good. Recovering Christians Anon. RCA. Christ-Anon.
Kathy - You spoke my heart:
"we just eat together & someone facilitates a conversation about something that's on their heart in whatever creative or basic way they want."
You are full of words of hope for me. Thank you.
Hope to see you soon!
Because the "We have no idea in hell how to deal with this as a group, so we're done" thing where people get tromped on...well, sucks.
_____________________________
Erin, absolutely. And yet I wonder how many of those people in that situation would have acted more intuitively and automatically at home with their families when bad shit hit the fan, and yet suddenly when they get out into "community" they clam up, go cold, freak out and don't know how to act because we have been so conditioned to think that it's about "the rules" when we're in community.
I was watching TV the other day (it was about the Jehovah's Witnesses, actually, and quite fascinating. made me realise how stereotyped they are and how many things about them I had learnt wrongly). But anyway, there were a few shots of people in a Kingdom Hall meeting, and as the camera panned across the room I'm sitting in my chair yelling, "What the hell are you people doing there, people?" All the groupthink feelings came back to me. I'm a pretty outgoing, dont take bullshit kinda gal, and even I find that kind of thing really very intimidating.
I loved what Glenn said about many of the problems being fear and "Will we like each other?" Because to be honest, I find Christians some of the most loathsome creatures on the planet. I consistently have better, more real conversations with non-Christians than Christians. How sad is that?
(Of course the flipside of that is "Will people like me?" I have been far too vulnerable for the past 7 years to go back into any kindof group thing because there's too much going on in me that I'm not willing to have someone else stomp over, thanks very much.
Which is also really sad. I feel like the Body has cancer, and it needs healing. It needs healing so it can toughen up its skin and love the parts of itself that are just plain ugly.
Hey SuzyQ. That's interesting, I never thought about how these same people would treat family different. You are right. Weird that I never thought about that.
I guess the metaphor of a body...well, I know there are parts I would rather do without (on my own flesh), so, likewise. But if I had cancer...something that would kill me if I didn't kill it first...I'd work hard to exorcise myself of it.
Sigh.
Erin, what a conversation you've started, woman! I'm loving it!
You wrote: "But then we also have to know and accept that we aren't supposed to "fix" each other. Well, we did say that, but when it came down to it people wanted to try to fix each other because, I don't know, how do you find the balance between condoning damaging behavior and being judgmental, trying to fix it?"
This, in my opinion, is where we all have been kept in such ignorance because we've not had many spiritual fathers who can raise us up in the truth. I am only just now coming to understand these truths, and I've been a Christian for 24 years and was formerly a "pastor" at a church.
The balance is found in that God always wants to bring restoration to His people, even while they are 100% completely acceptable as they are. As an example: A person is no more acceptable to God if they never look at porn versus if they are a total porn addict. Their acceptance is 100% already taken care of at the cross. So, I can accept that person just as they are, where they are, how they are. However, they are being robbed of relationship (because porn, above all, is an isolating, pain-numbing thing), and so we want to see restoration come to them where their sexuality is broken, where their relationships are broken, where they are using porn to numb their pain, etc.
In this example, porn is just a symptom of where reconciliation needs to take place between a wounded part of this person and their relationship to God. So, we want to see them restored so that they can experience the abundant life that Jesus promised that so few have, but our view of that person, our acceptance of them, our love for them, etc., does not change one bit while they are in the midst of their porn addiction. We want total freedom for that person even while we unconditionally love them as they stumble along the path of being made whole. We become willing to walk with them while they stumble along.
And if they do not see that they have a problem that is keeping them from being free and living joyfully, we are their mirrors that they cannot escape from. There really is a loving confrontation that brings people to freedom. Most of us, though, have experience a false, plastic version of this and we know how damaging it can be. That, however, does not negate that the real thing exists, you know?
I don't know if I've just made that clear as mud! I do know that I've experienced unconditional acceptance in the midst of my BS and garbage, even while being loved toward restoration of all things within me. I am determined to offer this to others as well, even while my own healing and restoration continues (as it is a lifelong process that never ends until we see him face to face).
Sorry for the length! I am passionate about this and got carried away!
You know, Tracy, While I really like what you say and hear the truth in it, I think in my experience I was so burned by "restoration" that it's a huge trigger for me. All I really feel able or willing to give or receive is complete freedom. Maybe that is wrong...but there it is.
Personally I found that we CAN'T fix each other, all we can do is love each other and be willing to be used by God in the process of restoration. As soon as we *try* to aid in restoration, we have an agenda and that person will feel judged. Because it's not up to me how or how long God will take to heal someone, all I can do is be free to love and let God work in my relationship with that person however he sees fit.
Erin, I completely agree with what you've said. We cannot fix anyone, nor are we called to do so, EVER, in my opinion! I also think that we can never, ever, ever force anyone on this journey. The minute I "smell" force, I'm out of there! But someone that is in my life is desperate and miserable and wants to be free, I want to be there offering to walk with them on that journey, you know?
I guess I'm speaking from the place where I am at. I'm meeting with a group of people and every single one of us is just ready to live as free as we can and to drop the chains that we've clung to. We're tired of it and ready to be free, so we'll journey together in that process. It might not be the right time or the right journey for anyone else, but for us, it's time and it's glorious!
Erin:
a few comments up (maybe two), the thing that jumps at me is the word "agenda".
I think so many times, we "agenda" and we do it without even recognizing it.
Then I am chewing on - wether agenda is biblical or is it anti-biblical.
Oh Tracy, I don't mean to sound as though I'm knocking where you're at or what you're doing, because your excitement is infectious!
I think I'm just in a place where I'm still trying to discern the balance of how to handle it when people are really struggling.
Jeff, I would suppose that would have to do with what the agenda was.
I looked up the definition of "agenda" and got this:
something that is to be done
So in that case, I think love is an agenda. But there can be wrong agenda, too...i.e. trying to demand that others change.
Erin, I did not take it that way all--so no worries there!
This conversation has really clarified one thing for me that is beautiful. I realize how when people are really hurting and just cannot face their pain or wounds or scars or whatever, that's when I think we need to really just stay with them and love them, and not require that they face what they are not able to at that time. I have really needed this in my own life for a long time, since religious coercion was previously used to get me to "measure up."If anyone had tried to pressure me before I was trusting and ready, forget it!
I think this is where so many of us have been wounded in the past: When someone is trying to force us into seeking healing or restoration when we're just not ready yet for whatever reason. And I often think that we have to sometimes be loved for a long, long time in that place before we can trust enough to even be willing to look up and see if healing is really a possibility for us.
Most of us have never been loved like this (and I think we all long for it). Instead, we've been told we're wounded and we need to get healing and get "over it." We all know how much THAT helps! Ha!
I'm thinking about how love looks different for someone that isn't quite ready yet to go after whatever it is that's holding them back from joy as opposed to loving someone who finally trusts someone or some group of people in their lives enough to say, "I need help. Will you walk with me through this?" It can take a long time to develop that kind of trust, and the reality is, most people don't want to put the time in for it to develop, do they? The point is love, not healing. I'm so glad I have people in my life that will put in the time, and that I have people in my life that I'm willing to put in the time with them.
Just some more random thoughts you're stirring up in this brain of mine, Erin!
To all who long for authentic community. I just want you to know that there are some of us who are intentionally working to create the alternatives you have been seeking and longing for. We hope within the next 3-6 months to begin rolling out those possibilities.
The project is called Tribe and has been in development for at least 6 years but the time is fast approaching when it will be available.
Stay tuned for more.
Tracy - I think you hit on something really important. That is, when people are acting out in sin, it's not the sin that needs fixing (external) but the pain inside that is driving the sin (internal). We can do whatever we want to try to get them to stop sinning, but until the pain inside is healed, they will just relapse or move to something else. Not only that but our desire to see the end to sin only makes the person feel unloved.
So in my experience I had to just love them where they were and trust that God would heal the pain, because I wanted the internal to be healed, not just the external behavior (I think Jesus said something to that effect ;-) but I was so brainwashed to believe the sin was the problem, not the internal pain or whatever.
Thank you for sharing that, Jonathan. I'm thinking "Wow, there's more?" because Tracy has been talking up Thrive all over the place and making many of us curious about it...
Erin,
You are where I am, and it is an exciting and nerve-wracking place to be.
Also quite lonely at times . . .
Brian - You are so right. If I didn't have this place online, I'd nearly go nuts with the feelings and fears that I'm all alone.
Me too Erin!
Well, Barb, it's good that we have each other!
Erin, I so agree with you. So many focus on the sin as though that is the problem. It's just the symptom of what is happening in the heart.
As to Thrive, you made me laugh out loud with that comment :0). I've only mentioned it on two blogs, so it was funny to me. But, you're right in that my enthusiasm is quite high!
What I like is that it's a great starting point: Our group is doing things very different from what they normally do, and that for me is where I've seen the hearts of the people behind Thrive.
They are supportive of us veering off the path and trying new things, new ways, etc. We are experimenting with some things they've not tried before, and they're saying, "Go for it!" It's seeing that kind of lack of control that has repeatedly brought me to tears. I don't know about you, but I just have so seldom encountered that in any ministry or church. If we "fail" at our experiment, they'll help pick us up off the ground and try again in a different way if we want to.
Anyway, for us Thrive is a launching pad for us to go where we think we're being led, into some new territory. I no longer think any material or ministry is "IT," but we needed a place to launch from and they have beautifully provided that for us.
Their support of us not "following" everything they've written down is amazing to me. I'm just not a "one size fits all" kind of woman, you know? They get that and support it. I've never encountered that in my world before. The day Jonathan said to me, "This is just A path, not THE path," I knew I'd found a starting place for meeting with people. So far, so good; we've only just begun. I'll keep you posted!
Tracy - Wow it seems I've heard you mention Thrive several places, but it may be my imagination just because you seem so excited about it.
I'm very glad you have found a place to start, because really that's all that matters and all that it takes. God will do the rest. I'm interested to hear how it goes as time gets on, so keep me posted.
the modern church:" jesus, its all about meeee....it's all about meeeee Jesus. Make your church meet my needs Jesus, because we know, its all about meeeeee."
yes, and this "Thrive" will disappoint too, because they are sinners too. Someone will do something "mean" or "controlling" and then you will stalk out of there too and start a fresh whinefest about how "no where is safe"> Guess what: no where IS safe: all you can change is yourself. Its like people who divorce endless spouses only to realize in the end that the common thread was THEM and it wasn't the matter of finding the right person but being the right person.
Anon - For the record, I've only "left" one church, so I fail to see a pattern.
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