A few things I'm thinking about today:
Glenn has announced a simple synchroblog for Monday, May 5th, asking the following questions:
It looks like I will be participating in the Portland to Coast walking relay in August. Two legs of 4-7 miles each, 12 people per team, for a total of 127 miles. I'm in good shape for the distance, but my average mile is about 15 minutes and I'd like to get it down at least a minute before then. I wonder how much time one can shave off their average walking mile in 4 months...?
Matt Stone has an interesting post about Myers-Briggs personality types and the ability to experience/engage in the mystical or supernatural. To summarize, the NF type (all you INFP's) have the greatest ability and the ST types are most likely to be skeptical. It was very thought provoking for me and explains a great deal about religion in my marriage.
Also I have been thinking about eschatology/biblical prophecy. I haven't cemented my views, but I have left behind the Left Behind belief system. "See you here, there, or in the air" somehow doesn't wash with me anymore. So I have been thinking, thanks to a recent conversation with Robert, about preterism. A blog friend posted something today that got me to think even more about it. Things that make you go Hmm.
Today I did something I've been planning to for quite some time, and I heard on the news today was the last day, so I rushed downtown. What did I do, you may ask? Well, to be exceedingly vague, it was something to do with the year 2008 and a certain kind of affiliation that many/most of us possess that becomes particularly important every 4 years or so. Even though it was a small thing, it was a huge thing for me. Only those of you who know what it is to hold tightly to a certain affiliation because it is the only "right" way to be religious will understand what a momentous occasion this was for me. This deconstructing process is still fun after three years. It's not so important what I went to as it is what I left.
CNN reported yesterday regarding the FLDS situation that:
I guess that's about it for now. Till next time...
Glenn has announced a simple synchroblog for Monday, May 5th, asking the following questions:
- How are you doing?
- What are you doing?
- What are you learning?
- What are you dreaming about?
It looks like I will be participating in the Portland to Coast walking relay in August. Two legs of 4-7 miles each, 12 people per team, for a total of 127 miles. I'm in good shape for the distance, but my average mile is about 15 minutes and I'd like to get it down at least a minute before then. I wonder how much time one can shave off their average walking mile in 4 months...?
Matt Stone has an interesting post about Myers-Briggs personality types and the ability to experience/engage in the mystical or supernatural. To summarize, the NF type (all you INFP's) have the greatest ability and the ST types are most likely to be skeptical. It was very thought provoking for me and explains a great deal about religion in my marriage.
Also I have been thinking about eschatology/biblical prophecy. I haven't cemented my views, but I have left behind the Left Behind belief system. "See you here, there, or in the air" somehow doesn't wash with me anymore. So I have been thinking, thanks to a recent conversation with Robert, about preterism. A blog friend posted something today that got me to think even more about it. Things that make you go Hmm.
Today I did something I've been planning to for quite some time, and I heard on the news today was the last day, so I rushed downtown. What did I do, you may ask? Well, to be exceedingly vague, it was something to do with the year 2008 and a certain kind of affiliation that many/most of us possess that becomes particularly important every 4 years or so. Even though it was a small thing, it was a huge thing for me. Only those of you who know what it is to hold tightly to a certain affiliation because it is the only "right" way to be religious will understand what a momentous occasion this was for me. This deconstructing process is still fun after three years. It's not so important what I went to as it is what I left.
CNN reported yesterday regarding the FLDS situation that:
"Of the 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 who are in state custody, 31 either have given birth or are expecting."I believe in freedom of religion, but only so long as it does not interfere with the freedom and rights of others, especially minors. Please continue to pray for these children.
I guess that's about it for now. Till next time...
Erin ~ You know what else I really dislike about this whole affair. The press has made this an issue of polygamy and in doing so has put a nice little blanket over the real issue, child abuse.
ReplyDeleteI am most definitely praying for those young people.
Oh yeah, If I get time, I will most likely write something for the synchroblog. Hard to say sitting her now.
ReplyDeleteyeah about changing your "affiliation!"
ReplyDeletei've been a registered republican my entire voting life. But this year I am putting my support behind Obama. So I changed my party affiliation last week so as to vote in the primary next month. Some people think the oregon primary could carry some weight this year for this election. I don't know. I just know that out of the three candidates, I am for Obama. Or as I like to call him, BARAMA....you had to be there.......
good to to talk to you today...see ya thursday.....
That's an eclectic bunch of stuff you're thinking about/doing. You're a rather interesting chicky, ain't ya? :)
ReplyDeleteErin, congrats on the involvement in the PTC.
ReplyDeleteI think I am an INFP. It's been almost 20 years since I took the MBTI test.
Way to go on getting down there and doing whatever it was that you did downtown. I hear you on your reasons why.
Pam, yeah, I am now a registered Democrat too, after 30 years as a Republican. My faith just would not allow me to stay Republican. I strongly support Obama as well, even if I have auto-sent the constant emails from his campaign to my delete file.
I was first exposed to preterism four or five years ago on a Telnet-based Christian BBS. I found it an interesting concept. Some of the "take-aways" of preterism (especially how a preterist viewpoint affects how one sees the rest of the world) were very appealing, though I can't say I found the actual arguments for the viewpoint entirely compelling. (Not that I found the opposing views' arguments all that compelling, either.)
ReplyDeleteThe arguments I heard seemed to boil down to selective Biblical literalism. If you took this group of Bible verses literally, you were "forced" to conclude that preterism was correct. If you took this other group of Bible verses literally, you were "forced" to accept a future coming of Christ. The thing is, the decision of which set of verses to take literally and which one to interpret more metaphorically seemed entirely arbitrary.
Now, in fairness, I should point out that the person I met who was arguing the preterist viewpoint seemed to be more interested in being a condescending jerk rather than exploring and elucidating the finer points of his position and the arguments supporting it. So my impressions of the topic may be affected by that to some degree.
Erin, I'd like to hear you blog a bit more about preterism if the desire so leads you. I've been swimming around n the waters myself over the past several months and it brings a whole stack of stuff into line for me (but then, I guess my own judgment isn't the yardstick for what's reality - thankfully :) - but sitting with the possibilities of this is quite illuminating.
ReplyDeleteI wonder, can you have a preterist view of much of the Bible but also believe that He will come again?
Sorry it took me so long to get to the comments...had a bit of a busy day...
ReplyDeleteMike - I agree. I think some people want desperately to make it a freedom of religion issue...probably because it would be a lucrative lawsuit. But violating the rights of a child is child abuse, and I don't care which prophet said to.
ReplyDeletePam - I can't tell you how great that felt, then again, you probably know. Like a giant weight. It's so weird.
ReplyDeleteLooking forward to lunch tomorrow.
Sue - You KNOW it. :-)
ReplyDeleteGary - Thanks. We'll see.
ReplyDeleteI would say you are an INFP too, just based on what I know of you. But that's just your blog side. Maybe your family side or business side is more extroverted. You ought to take one of the online tests, just for fun someday.
Jarred - Thanks for your thoughts on this, and I agree that differing points (not just on eschatology) often have to do with "selective literalism". For sure. There is so much to that.
ReplyDeleteI think for me it's simply what logic and experience with God tell me to believe. God isn't an idiot (IMHO), and God created brains, so there has to be something to that.
The idea that Jesus is coming back any day to destroy everything that's evil just doesn't mesh with the God I know.
And Merry Beltane.
Sue - I'll e-mail you some links.
ReplyDeleteI don't know much about it since I was only introduced to it by Robert a few weeks ago. Chances are he would be happy to answer your questions if he can...
I will have to think about whether or not there is anything there for me to blog about yet...I'm just getting my feet wet.
Yes. Quite illuminating.
Beltane? Oh yeah, that's today, isn't it? ;)
ReplyDeleteThanks, Erin.
Jarred - You're welcome.
ReplyDeletei've been thinking about this post for several days now, not sure what all to say since i want to say so much.
ReplyDeleteas far as your college word of eschatology goes... a comparison of matthew 24 and revelation 6&7 gives an interesting and complimentary picture of "the end."
politically i guess i would have to say i'm an anarchist at heart. being someone who doesn't need laws or human authority over me in order to be a decent citizen, it tends to be my natural position.
not really sure how i feel about what is upcoming as i genuinely feel that it doesn't matter who wins. i'll still wake up everyday in a paradigm ruled by time, money, and business. so either way, my interests and beliefs won't be fully represented.
that being my political and social perspective, i found your final statement, "I believe in freedom of religion, but only so long as it does not interfere with the freedom and rights of others, especially minors" to be quite interesting.
how do you feel about letting your children be indoctrinated by the government in a public school? being prepared for a world that doesn't truly exist and is crumbling rapidly by the day? what about showing them only one paradigm in which being good little materialists in competition with one another is the ONLY option of life? presented to them day after day for 13 years solid until they can't conceive of anything else. don't you think it falls under the same category?
(sorry to play devil's advocate. something i'm sincerely curious about, as well as others' opinions about it...)
Jon - No problem re:the devils advocate.
ReplyDeleteIn the big picture, I don't think political affiliation or voting really has much to do with the way things are run around here...but it was really important to me to reject on paper, as well as with my vote, certain belief systems.
As far as your other question, let me quantify:
"I believe in freedom of religion, but only so long as it does not interfere with the freedoms and rights of others, especially minors, as outlined by the laws of this nation and it's states."
I think committing sexual or physical abuse against a child in the name of religion clearly fall under this statement.
Many, many things are gray areas, such as education. Whether or not it is abusive to send a child to public school isn't something the law has defined. Sexual abuse, on the other hand, is.
So what I'm saying is that if it's otherwise illegal, it doesn't fall under religious freedom. Which of course, it doesn't. So my statement is redundant, in that regard.
I think I was going more for this sentiment: I'm a Christian but not fundamentalist. I don't believe that if you are a Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Mormon, Pagan, or whatever, that you are evil and and we as a "Christian" nation ought to do everything we can to persecute you; as long as the practice of your religion advocates treating others, especially children with respect and safety as the law defines."
In other words, don't beat your wife, don't abuse your son, don't marry off your daughter if she is under 18, etc. etc. etc. and hide it under a religious banner. If it's against the law in this country and you live here, the law applies to you.
That was my point.
Qualify, not quantify. Sorry.
ReplyDeleteeven if what is considered "legal" has been defined by people whose belief systems you are totally at odds with?
ReplyDeleteI think so Jon. I like to think we can trust laws regarding abuse that have been developed over the years. But do you have something specific in mind other than what we've already talked about? Because I'm interested to know what your thought process is on this. How should we determine what "abuse" among religions is? Should religions be given exceptions to the rule of law?
ReplyDeleteI really want to know what you think.
Hey Erin,
ReplyDeletejust stopping in to let you know I tagged you for a meme. It's fun and sometimes we need that right? I sure do these days.
Love!!!!
Thanks Cynthia. I'll do it tomorrow. Fun is good!
ReplyDeletelet me say that this is difficult. i don't know if it's a gift or a character flaw, but i have the ability to separate thought from emotion. so when i look at this, i might seem cold. not so. but it is how i look at things best, sometimes.
ReplyDeletelet me start off by saying that i am against anyone forced into engaging in any of the things that happened, or being physically and mentally abused to accomplish any of the things that happened. i am against that. i say that is evil and must stop immediately.
yet, at the same time, i would like more first-hand information. i would like to know if that is the norm. if that is always what happens there. if there is no other M.O. and what about other groups with similar beliefs? are they also filled with such horror? i have seen some interviewed who seemed genuinely happy and fulfilled. who thought of their place in a family to be a place of honor. who were walking into this lifestyle willingly.
and that's what is hard for me about this. because i personally want a boundary-less freedom. and i feel that if i am going to be consistant, then i want others to have the same. yet, in the same vein as you, i think that it should be a voluntary choice without the fear and abuse and manipulation.
is this a ridiculously extreme example? yes. does it mean that polygamy in and of itself is the cause? no. it does not. men who do not value the "independant personhood" of others is the cause.
but as i said, when you break it down in this fashion, i have to wonder about what we do to our own children. what was done to me. not abuse on this scale, i'm not even trying to go there. but a limiting of options. an indoctrination that says there is no other world out there. there are no other possibile worlds to live in. this is the "real world" and you need to prepare for it in just this manner. you need to accept that this is just how life is and there is no other way.
time, money, greed, gas-powered vehicles, dependance on others for daily sustenance, giving more and more of your time and energy to a "job" and less time with family, the list could go on and on here.
i for one feel a little jaded that the world i was told to expect and prepare for does not exist anymore and is crumbling fast. by the day even. i feel a little upset that all the time i wasted in school, there was no real education on how to care for myself and my family outside of the system. that the option and the training wasn't even given.
on a cold, intellectual level, i see an element in our own culture very similar to what happened inside the compound. (minus the physical abuse) constantly molding, shaping, scolding popular ideas of "right and wrong" as well as "appropriate" and "professional" on our young children. boxing them in mentally until they can't see outside this cold, hard, "give me another new shiny thing to distract me from my misery" world that i, for one, feel very much trapped inside.
there are so many oher things i could say, such as the fact that i am grateful to live where i live. i just hate what we've done with our fredom. i simply hate the life-sucking paradigm within which we survive.
as, i am very sure, those compound children did as well.
OK, Jon. I've been thinking about what you said all day.
ReplyDeleteYou say polygamy isn't the cause of this, men who don't see people as individuals are, and that some go into it willingly and with eyes open. True and true. But still, it's ILLEGAL. So it doesn't matter the cause or how people feel about it. It needs to stop.
Awhile back in Australia, there was a news story about a father and daughter who are married to each other. (This isn't the most recent story about the father who kept his daughter captive.) They are happily married, very much in love and have a son together. Fine and dandy for them, but it's still incest and illegal. There are reasons for these things.
If you or I went to the church of pot-smoking...even if we loved it and were completely aware of the risks and were happy, that doesn't make it any less illegal, even if we are doing it for religious reasons and even if we are happy with it. If the law decided to shut it down, we wouldn't have an excuse.
You said you want to be extended the same freedoms of others, and yes there are many harmful particles that fall into gray areas. But the fact is, there is a boundary.
I think you and I are arguing the same side of the issue, just from different perspectives, and I hear and understand what you're saying, (I think ;-). You're looking at it from a more holistic point of view, where I'm seeing the black and white (definitely weird for me) that if something is illegal it's not protected even under the banner of religion.
In the end I'm kinda scared by my rigid attitude here, and no doubt it will come back to bite me in the butt one day, but there it is. There is a great deal of leeway in religion in my mind, as you know, but there are also the limits of the law.
I guess I'm just so livid about what has happened to these girls. I'm a girl and I'm sorry, but there's no excuse for a 40 year old man to rape a 14 year old. None. Yes ,in other countries and other religions this is acceptable. But not here.
no, it's not acceptable anywhere. i am a firm believer in this. rape is not cool in any culture that i'm aware of. and what i mean is: it is in no way anything that when experienced, it ends as a positive moment for giver and receiver. it is not a unifying moment bringing together two beings in unity and love. it is a moment whereby much damage is done. and i'm not for it. anywhere. i don't think any people are. the only people who are for this kind of world, however, are those who have never been on the other side of it.
ReplyDeleteshould there be boundries? absolutely. i just maintain that the boundries should come from within, not from without. i'm not saying that a person should not be held responsible for their actions. i just don't like our current system of accomplishing this.
i think government is useless at this point. in terms of congress. in terms of new law. always, more and more new law. when most of the basic laws that we needed (stealing, murder, etc...) have already been covered. we don't really need much more, but they've got to do something to keep earning their paycheck. so they use that ability to line the pockets of their friends. never realizing how many backs of others that this smooth path for them is being paved. what about all of that money? can't we use that money to figure out alternative energy sources and self-sufficiency measures?
law doesn't matter. law is not the definer of "good and evil" or "wrong or right." it does have this power in the mental arena. we can allow it to define our reality if we so choose. but in truth many of our modern laws and cultures on what it means to be successful and protecting the economy and our national security are man's ideas. i do not feel comfortable for these people whom i don't really know, and who don't know me or my family, controlling my choices to determine the course of the only life i have to give in honor of the King.
we could be so much more. we now live in a time when we could sit down and have a global conversation and come up with a new plan. we have the technology, we have the interpreters, but do we have the love?
'Do we have the love?' you ask.
ReplyDeleteThat really is the pointed question, isn't it? I wish we as a society could be better at that, but like you say, the consumerism makes it hard. It's hard to be the antithesis of that, because it is everywhere we turn. I think in many ways love is the polar opposite of consumerism.
I don't know the answer.
"If you or I went to the church of pot-smoking..."
ReplyDeleteAhh, unfortunately, that would be one church that I would be at on Sunday morning! :) (I feel like an alcoholic, haven't had a joint pass my lips for months and months and months, but could climb back on board in a jiffy).
Anyway, I digress. Thanks Erin and Jon for a fascinating read :)
Sue - well I knew that wasn't *entirely* fictitious.... :)
ReplyDeleteI didn't go to the church of pot smoking. I did, however go to the church of grain and vine based beverages. I hear ya.