10.30.2007

Prayer....or Not?

The other day I asked a pointed question:

If someone who is clearly of another faith offered to pray for you, how would you respond? Are all prayers the same regardless of what deity those prayers are offered up to? Would you ever tell someone NOT to pray for you if you knew they would be praying to a god other than yours?

This question was inspired by a post I read at Steve "Wanderer" Graves blog "Life or Something Close to It."

Steve is a self-described Pagan, Wiccan, Goddess worshiper. Recently a Christian friend of his asked him to pray for her....well, let me just quote him here:
"A few months ago, a friend of mine was preparing to undergo surgery, and she called upon all of her friends to pray for her during this ordeal. I was included on that list at the time, and I must admit that it raised some rather interesting questions for me. This woman is a Christian. One with whom I have debated theology with on occasion. She has made it clear that she is of the opinion that the Goddess that I speak of and speak to is really the devil, or some demon working for him to ensnare my soul."

"I did bring up to her the fact that she has declared that the one that I pray to is an evil force, and as such, praying to Her would seemingly be something that would not be in her best interest if she is correct."

"To paraphrase the response she gave, that I don't have in front of me right now, she indicated that it was not an issue of who I was praying to, but who was listening [emphasis added]....It presents the concept that if the Christians are right about their one true god, it doesn't matter who I pray to, or what name I use, their god will respond or not the same anyway."
I don't know Steve very well at all, but I've been reading his posts long enough to say that I don't believe he is being antagonistic. I think it's a fair question.

Point two: I have recently been reading a blog that Helen pointed to, called Leaving Eden, written by a Wheaton (a Christian College) student who has left Christianity for atheism while attending college there. The other day, the blog author wrote about prayer:
"It’s midterm week at Wheaton, and everybody is frantically taking exams, writing papers, and getting ready for Fall Break. For devotions in every class, we pray for our exams, preservation of sanity, and safety traveling during Fall Break. I think it’s incredibly hokey. So I was surprised, as I walked across campus on my way to take a midterm exam, to find myself wishing that there was some atheistic equivalent to prayer."

"Is there an atheistic equivalent of prayer? A way to recognize the good, prepare for the worst, and put your mind at ease, maybe with a small ritual? How do you express concern for someone where you might normally say “I’ll pray for you”? How do you keep friends’ troubles in your thoughts and mentally provide moral support? Or are these psychological games purely the domain of religion? Or, is praying essentially the same as thinking? As I once overheard a Wheaton student say to another, “sometimes I don’t know if I’m praying or thinking”.

I originally asked you if you would mind someone praying for you even if they were not praying to your God, and the answers were overwhelmingly "Yes". You said you'd appreciate that someone cared enough about you to pray for you, even if they are of another faith.

Let me take that a step further here...I've been thinking...does the God we pray to, the Abrahamic God, hear everything? Does God have a special filter for atheists 'thougths' or a Pagan's prayers to their Goddess? Is it all the same because all humans are His children and He loves us all? Is it wrong for us to even ask that question considering that these individuals don't believe in our God and therefore they are lost, regardless? Are a Pagan's prayers or blessings harmful to you? Could a Pagan who cares about you inadvertently curse you simply because they pray to a Deity who is a "false" god to Christianity? Is the idea that the only God who truly exists is the Abrahamic God disrespectful to people of other beliefs?

I know this is a loaded question and I'm not going to claim to have an answer...I want to hear what you think and then I'll chime in a little later.


17 comments:

Ed G. said...

A friend of mine, who is not a Christian, has come to me on more than one occasion asking me to pray for him. And I always take that as a sign of encouragement – that whether he’s ‘covering all his bases’ or sincerely looking for strength, he is open to the idea that he can find hope and peace through Christ.

With that as my filter, I can only say that saying prayers to a deity or being other than the one true God is troublesome to me. Kinda like the song says, “looking for love in all the wrong places.”

I will admit that there is so much about God that I do not comprehend – but I would venture to guess that He can tell the difference between someone who is seeking Him but lost their way (a prayer that is heard) vs. someone who is intentionally looking elsewhere.

Cindy said...

Erin-
we were out of town when you posted the precursor to this post and I totally missed it. i apologize for not joining the discussion, although you already know how i would've answered. Steve is my friend and I appreciate his prayers.

I'll answer as many of the new questions as i can.

I do believe my God hears everything.

I don't know if he answers prayers directed toward other gods.

I think he especially sees, hears and is pleased when people offer loving concern for one another, regardless of the manner in which it is offered.

I don't believe the prayers of a pagan or wiccan or anyone else are harmful to me, nor do I believe their postive prayers for me can accidentally curse me.

I believe my God is all powerful. I believe there is a spiritual realm, but I have no idea what goes on in it. I'm not afraid that my God will be spiritually overpowered, even if someone were attempting to curse me.

I take Christ's promise at face value, "i will never leave you nor forsake you." If i believe that, then why would i run around acting like i'm always in danger from some unseen negative spiritual force?

In my opinion the evangelical mania over the "ever present threat of supernatural evil", which I was at a time a participant in, is an attempt to control a world they claim is controlled by God. I'm sure the folks who are constantly chanting these prayers over evil etc... mean no harm, but they've given in to fear and that fear is inconsistent with what they claim to believe. Either God is in control or he isn't.

In Christ's prayer, he does include a prayer for deliverance from evil- that immediately follows "lead us not into temptation." Doesn't that sound like our greatest danger from evil is directly linked to our giving in to temptations? It does to me. We should be far more worried about the state of our own spirits than some unseen spirits that might be out there.

I leave the answer to the very last question in the hands of people of other faiths. I have no idea.

thanks for bringing this subject to the forefront. i hope you get some great discussion.

Erin said...

Ed - I like the way you've put your thoughts here.

I'm going to reserve weighing in myself until some more people have had a chance to comment, but I appreciate you taking the time to share.

Erin said...

Cindy - No worries!

I love the way you've broken down your thoughts here...and I do agree that our God is not going to be overpowered by anything else.

Thanks very much for all you have said, and I do hope we get some more good conversation on this!

I'll weigh in a little later.

Ché Vachon said...

I'll weigh in as agreeing with Cindy.
I don't think that prayers to another 'deity' will curse me.
If a prayer is uttered out of concern and care for me...I believe God hears that.
I believe He hears it all, actually. But what He answers with is always different.
I think that all seekers of truth are cared for and honoured by Him..and He will help them find the truth.
And I think that Christianity has built monuments to fear.
Isn't what is in the heart, is what comes out? I've seen more cursing within the confines of church, than by anyone else...

Wanderer said...

Well, I must say that I impressed at the number of in-depth questions you posed in addition to my additional curiosity.

Much as Cindy was leaving the last question to folks such as myself, I for the same reasons will leave the other questions to you folks for the time being.

As to that last question, I would have to say that there is nothing more insulting in your belief of the one true god than in my statements that I am not concerned about those of of other religions as they pray to any god, since my Goddess is the only one up there listening, and She doesn't concern herself much with what you call her. (Not trying to stir up the nest here, just flipping the coin and looking at the other side.)

I have no concern about people believing theirs is the only right way. I do have concerns about them beating others over the head with this belief if they disagree. I think that is the key line.

I had the enjoyable experience today of having an evangelical person declare loudly to the patrons of Burger King that my Goddess didn't exist. I just laughed and walked away, serenaded by bible quotes.

If your belief is dependent on the acceptance of others, you should sit down and reevaluate what you believe. If it isn't, such arrogant statements as the one I made above and the ones you refer to shouldn't matter.

Erin said...

Steve - I'm OK with you "flipping the coin", that's the point of this conversation.

I think we're all probably agreed that it's one thing to have beliefs and opinions, and another to abuse people with them. I'm sorry about your encounter at BK. It hasn't been that long since I was one of those who beat people up with my beliefs.

I think your last line is important. When I care so much what other people believe that I am mean or antagonistic about it, I need to take a serious look at myself.

Thanks for conversing with us.

Sue said...

I'm a Christian Universalist, so when I think of that idea that we are "seated with Christ in the heavenlies", I think that basically refers to everyone. So coming from that perspective then I think that yes, God does hear everything. If we are going to define it by how "right" we are or how "spot on" we have got God, then so many so-called Christians are so terribly off-the-mark with their rigid, hateful little rule keeper ... that it really should be whether God hears the prayers of those people before he hears the prayer of a devout Buddhist, who is closer to the source and essence of Christ as far as I'm concerned, even if they don't know him yet.

I don't know if that answered your question. I just got out of bed and I really shouldn't be writing anything that is supposed to make sense :)

Cindy said...

Steve, you make a good point about taking offense. It doesn't bother me that you feel your goddess is the true god. I knew that already, of course. So i'm glad you don't take particular offense when i believe the same about my God. I think it comes down to personalities more than anything. There are people of every belief system out there who become offended at almost anything. I agree that if we're confident in our own beliefs, we won't be inclined to strike out at those who believe differently.

Erin said...

Che - I think you make a good point about God making Himself known to those who seek Him.

And I agree about the cursing. We curse so many things in the church.

Erin said...

Sue - I agree that many Christians understand God wrong. People want rules to keep them in line and forget that so much of a relationship with God is in our hearts.

Nate said...

Wow! Great question.

Yes God listens to those not committed to him. How else would a sinner be able to come to God and commit themselves to him. Saying the sinners prayer if you would like an analogy.

If God is listening all of the time, then a prayer for one of his would reach his ears. What he would think of that, I do not know. But in this instance, since it is not the person needing the prayer doing it, I do not think it falls into the category"no other Gods". The person believed that even though he prayed to the goddess, he was really praying to God. God judges intent. So to God, "in this instance", it is not bad.

Now if the person in the hospital was hedging their bets. Getting as many differents faiths to pray for her as possible saying, "I don't care what God heals me, just make it one of them." That would fall into the "No other gods before me" category definately.

Erin said...

Nate - You make some great points! I thought about God hearing sinners when they come to Him...but I guess I used to think, "well He hears the sinners prayer, but not any other prayers by those who don't follow Him"...like He has some divine spam filter...hehe. I hadn't really thought about that issue at all since I've been de-religioned.

I think the way you differentiated here was good...it's all about the heart or the intent. Thanks!

Wanderer said...

Nate's comments are interesting, and raise a few questions in my mind. Not from a debate perspective, but clarification.

Is the indication, then that her belief alters whether the prayer is effective, not mine? If so, is this basically akin to her praying for herself? What if she does not know I am praying, so hasn't formed an opinion about who I am praying to?

In the example I gave, what wins out? Her belief her god will hear, or her belief that my Goddess is the devil?

The concept, as I am hearing it, seems odd. That when the Goddess speaks to me it is really the devil talking, but when I speak to Her, it is really your god that is listening. Does this seem illogical to anyone else? (Referring to her apparent position, not stating Nate is specifically being illogical.)

Erin said...

Steve - I'm laughing at the circular reasoning we've run into...in truth, who knows? I mean we all have our beliefs, but do our beliefs change what really is and is there any way for us to really know?

I am happy for someone to pray for me...because as a Christian if I believe in One True God (like I'm supposed to), then someone else's prayers to another God/dess either go to my God or off into space. If you and I are praying to different aspects of the same God, then all is good anyhow. If there truly are different deities who hear us, are we to assume they are in competition and our prayers are at war with each other? Or worse that our prayers are harmful to each other? To me, prayers are evidence of care, and I trust my God enough to sort out the details.

I'd love to hear more about how you see this question of prayer from your perspective, and I appreciate your willingness to engage with us here.

Wanderer said...

My thoughts on that question are liable to be lengthy. But perhaps I will tackle it on my blog where I have all of the space in the world to be as loquacious as it takes.

Erin said...

I'll look forward to hearing from you on that.

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