Yesterday, Grace posted about Wanting Answers:
"I have been pretty patient about this whole transition thing for quite a while now. The time that has passed has been useful and necessary for healing and detox. However, these are important years for us, and our family needs something more spiritual, real, and communal than what we have now."Yeah. Us too. But what to do about it?
Last night my husband came home from work and wanted to take the kids to our CLB. I shuddered. The kids complained. I asked, "Why do they have to go to church? It's their last week of summer vacation."
My husband answered back with an "It will be good for them" statement.
Which quickly puts me on the defensive. So, then you’re saying not going to church is bad for them?, I wondered.
"Why will it be good for them? What will they get there that they don't get at home?", I asked. I was really thinking "I don't want my kids subjected to that conservative evangelical programmatic mega-church cattle drive, where the same kids are convinced week after week to make redundant decisions for Christ so that the numbers look good for HQ because it’s more about the head-counts than the individuals; where an average week moves 1000 K-5 kids through the system."
He.just.wants.the.kids.to.go.to.church. Period. I don't fault him for this, it's just who he is, he believes very strongly in the value of the typical traditional church model.
I, well, DON'T. At least not the CLB. Or any of its counterparts, for that matter. It’s not just a church-level issue I have. It’s a denominational issue.
It seems there is this ugly chasm that is developing between my husband and I. I simply don't know how to resolve this. I am railing against my children being poisoned by our CLB’s rhetoric…to become one of those "I'm a Christian, he's a Christian, she's a Christian, they are Christians, wouldn't you like to be a Christian, too?" pop-culture evangelists. I don't want them learning about the doctrine of Hell, because I know from experience that does nothing but create a horrifying dichotomy about the Love of God. I don't want them to learn about having a dualistic life - church/spiritual life vs. everything-else-life, I want them to grow up to be holistic. I want them to learn to hear the Spirit, think for themselves, understand that the Bible is alive and therefore our understanding of is it always changing, that we aren’t responsible for legislating morality. I want them to know how to impact the world by Jesus' example, be kind and loving and generous, not because they are supposed to be but because Jesus is so alive in them.
I’m not completely opposed to returning to church at this point. But I won’t go to the wrong place simply to go. I don’t believe going to the wrong church is better than no church at all, any more than I believe when we are ill the wrong medicine is better than no medicine at all. In fact, it will likely only make us sicker. And I won't inflict that on my children. They know Jesus, we try to live Jesus in our home and in our lives.
All I can think of is the years I worked as a teller in a bank. When I started, it was a nice regional bank that cared about it's customers. We worked hard to make them happy, we made exceptions for people, we resolved issues, we took good care of them, we presented them with options, and never tried to sell them anything. I loved it, because the customers were happy.
My third year there, we were bought out by a national mega-bank, and things went to hell real quickly. Suddenly it wasn't about making anyone happy, except the bank’s bottom-line. The pressure to cross-sell, evangelize, if you will, was enormous. We took classes, all-day classes, sometimes all-week classes, on how to evangelize. We had to start cold-calling our customers, trying to sell them services they hadn’t inquired about. Our reviews and raises were dependent on how many people we sold services (they already had somewhere else or they didn't really need, but that generated revenue) to. If we didn't evangelize enough, we could lose our job. I hated it. I HATED it. Every step we took was about generating money and customers. We didn’t care one stinkin’ bit about the person; we only cared if there was something in it for “us” (“us” being the bank). It was all about the bottom line, we were servants of the bottom line. Lucky for me, or actually, thanks be to God, our financial situation changed about a year after that, and I left the bank.
That's what I DON'T want in a church...a bottom line. Whether that line is money, or souls won, or the republican agenda, or church attendance, I don't want it, I won't serve it. I want a place where I can be and allow Jesus to be in me, whatever that looks like. The only bottom line I want is Jesus; so I will continue looking for a place like that.
I just don't know what to do in the meantime. Let my husband take them to church? Start actively pursue finding a church as a family? Wait for God to direct us?
Yeah, the problem with waiting, is, like Grace said, it's taking too long! Let's get on with it!
I feel your pain.
ReplyDeleteI think my husband and I have decided going back really isn't an option.
It was difficult for quite awhile. To not feel like we should be doing something. For the kids? for "fellowship"? for "worship"? for "teaching"?
It seemed strange for the longest time, Sunday morning would come and we'd be taking a walk and we'd talk about our feelings of guilt. Like, something was wrong with US.
Now, were feeling, free.
No guilt, or questioning ourselves.
Just trying to live in the moment.
It might help that we have a home group? And that we have relationship with so many like minded people.
Just a call away...
I so appreciate your honesty. It's refreshing to read.
grin, well i went to a conservative evangelical stuff your head with the bible church and survived.
ReplyDeleteIn fact i look back on it now and think awesome heritage, thank you parents.
I appreciate your dilema, i wouldn't want to do it that way again but then if my options were limited i'd guess i'd want my kids to experience other christian kids more than my allergic reaction to how they are influenced. I'd hope that i'd have a spiritual impact on their formation as well.
Guess there is never a right answer to these things...
Hi Erin,
ReplyDeleteI hope you guys find a solution that works for your family. I absolutely agree with your bank analogy and your point about serving the organization.
I just had my husband read my latest post and we talked about it for a bit, mostly just kidding around. I asked him if he's ready for the next step (leaving) and he said he isn't.
Honestly, in my own heart, I feel free not to go, and he has always said I don't have to go with him. So I asked him why he still goes. Neither of us have great reasons.
Our oldest son likes it. It's kind of a habit. We get to see people we know and like there. Those are really terrific reasons, aren't they?! Lots of passion there, not!
Anyway for us, it looks like more detox, waiting, and hopefully not too much cynicism.
Rhonda - Thank you. I know exactly what you mean.
ReplyDeleteIt's been 2.5 years and I think we're starting to lean toward doing something again, but I do wish we had been able to keep our home group during this time.
Erin,
ReplyDeleteUnbeknownst to me, my husband felt the same way you do for years. I'm so glad he had the grace to wait for me. (plus he did not feel like God had released him) For us, when he really felt that he heard God speak, I was ready to go. I have read though of many couples who did not come to the same decision at the same time.
That said, I'm not sure what I would do now if he thought the family should go. I don't think I would stay for much of the services if I did. I'd probably just hide out in the nursery or talking to people in the halls.
I don't mean to give you any advice - you all are so much farther along in this than me. I just know how grateful I am to my Husband that he waited.
Paul - It's hard to know what's right. We go 'round and 'round about it.
ReplyDeleteBoth my kids were in Christian school for several years, and I'm not convinced that having Christian friends is more important than having any other kind of friends, at least to the point that it in itself is a good reason to go to church.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Grace - It's so funny that you talked about this yesterday and last night my husband and I got into the first discussion about it in a long time. Is it the full moon or something?
ReplyDeleteI commend your willingness to continue going to church. I haven't been that strong...
Here's to easy on the cynicism for us both (Erin raises her glass, of diet coke as it were).
you know the interesting thing ...
ReplyDeletebecause my children are older and because my 20 yod was still attending services and youth group functions, my kids have had the freedom to go or not. It has been up to them.
My youngest two never choose to go .. . well, maybe every other month they go and attend the kids church program and then they are done. I think they just go to see if they are missing out on anything and then figure out that they aren't.
My teenagers have chosen to stay in youth group and we have lots of great discussions. However, more and more, they aren't attending on Sunday mornings. They are beginning to see for themselves the hypocrisy and politics of it all. I am glad we have been able to make their own choices about attending services. But, we still have a lot to work out ... speaking about God is becoming just more and more natural but I do wonder if it is enough. I am trying to follow the Father's heart in all this. It's tough to drown out the "shoulds" though
BarB (I'll skip the N this time) - It's funny but this was going on in me for about a year before we actually left. I guess I was waiting for a catalyst, which I did finally get.
ReplyDeleteMy husband was fairly supportive - well that's not to say he was UNsupportive, but it took some time for him to get used to it. Still, he's taken the kids to the CLB a few times, when the mood strikes him and he thinks they "need" it. I know it frustrates him that I am not ready to return...I don't think he meant to sign on for two and a half years of this...but I am just about willing to look into new places at this point.
You can give me advice any time. You and me and people like us; we're all on this journey together. I'm still just thankful there are people who understand.
Cynthia - I think my kids are curious once in awhile, they are 11 and 8...but then once in awhile is enough.
ReplyDeleteI think we may be onto something here, in the sense that maybe "church" is something that is good once in awhile...but not all the time, not so much that we burn out. Community of any kind is good for the rest of the time. I don't know...just thinking out loud. we do talk about matters of faith way more at home than we used to, but that could easily be because the kids are older...
Thanks for sharing this journey with me. I appreciate you.
Couple of things.
ReplyDeleteFirst, what is a "CLB." Without knowing that, alot of this does not make sense.
Second, you gave me a great idea, about cyber worship broadcasting. Don't go to church, let church come to you in your own home via web cast. Don't know if it would be possible, but with all of the friends we have in the cybershpere, we could have a service with a couple hundred the first day. Who knows, maybe it would do no good at all, but I am sick of bitching about stuff, and not DOING anything to make it better. Sorry to rant.
Erin,
ReplyDeleteMy kids have survived their whole life in small conservative churches, having "Pops" as their pastor. Now they are grown with their own families. They are not going to church regularly, but I feel pretty good about their God relationship and they are very insightful. Children are very resilient!
This fall, we'll take another stab at gathering a group of people to be involved in the mission of God together. I am a non-authority on children's and youth ministry, but I am a firm believer in community. We need it and I think kids do too. I just don't know what that will look like for your family.
Nate - There should be a mouseover in my post wherever it says CLB to say "Church Left Behind". Anyhow, this is one you should know, LOL.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you and I totally understand about being tired of bitching. You know it. I don't know, it might work. I actually already have an idea in mind...just not sure where to go with it.
Glenn - I agree it's good for the kids as long as they are more than just "numbers", you know what I mean?
ReplyDeleteGood luck with your venture...that's the Communitas thing, right?
you know, if i started, i'd just end up word-puking all over your blog again... maybe later.
ReplyDeleteas far as the whole cyber-church thing... nate, i know this has been on your heart for a while. erin, it sounds as if you've got ideas. i know i've had a few things bopping around my transem for a year and a half now. any way we could hook up for some sort of more intensive conversation on this subject? anyone else out there interested in joining the conversation? just asking because it seems there are a few thousand of us who started out "deconstruction" or "dismantling" around the same time and have had time to lick our wounds and feel comfortable and confident in who we are now and are seeming to be coming to the same place where we want more, but we do not want what is out there in traditional churches. and many of us seem to have found each other in the blogosphere.
coincidence? should we at least talk about doing something about it?
Hi Erin,
ReplyDeleteI think the whole idea is not to leave because of a bad system or because of bad teaching. Most of us do this.
BUT
leave because you have found something better. Leave because you have found LIFE. Leave because you suddenly found that Jesus permeates your everyday life.
AND THEN
it will not matter that much that you and your husband differs. Jesus has a way to be irresistible. Talk to your children about what they hear and learn. But give them what you have. Not wrongs and rights, but LIFE.
It's not always an easy road. There is so much good we want for the people we love. But our passion for the good usually does not bear what we intend, because it flows out of our own life and not out of Jesus.
I cannot tell you what to do, but will pray that you will continue grow in Jesus.
thanks
Jon - I think I already told you I'm not afraid of word-puke...
ReplyDeleteAnyhow, I agree there is an abundance of walking-wounded and shell-shocked people out there...why don't one of you guys shoot me an e-mail with some thoughts and we'll put our heads together...I'm sure I know more takers...
erinword at gmail dot com
Abmo - Welcome to my blog...I've seen you around...
ReplyDeleteI like what you said and I agree I have found life outside the walls...in fact I have thrived on the blogging community, but there does come a time when one desires the face-to-face thing...just not sure where to go from here or how to go about it.
Thanks for commenting.
Erin, I don't even know what to write. There is so much I am not sure about at the moment. I hope that things work out for you. Maybe if your husband is wanting to go to CLB it means he's ready to try again? Personally I'd look around and find something that's right for you all, rather than going back to the place that you obviously left for a reason.
ReplyDeleteYou'l probably just end up getting wound up if you go back to CLB again.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteOops I messed up, hope this is ok this time.
ReplyDeleteIn Australia I have been to a lot of churches but have never been to a "conservative evangelical programmatic mega-church". There are a few mega-churches but they are all charismatic. There are conservative evangelical churches but they are all small (50-100 people) and therefore are not into the sort of activities you describe. Then there are those churches that are in between which are generally the ones I have been associated with. We are also not big on denominations over here people go from one to other without much hesitation.
This is probably not particularly helpful but thought I'd let you know where I'm coming from. I would probably start looking for another church but obviously things are very different there to the way things are here.
Hi Erin,
ReplyDeleteI love your blog. The face to face thing is important. Very. I'm gonna tell you what we do and a little bit of what we believe. Perhaps it will help you...:-)
One: When the curtain hanging in the temple was torn, something happened. We can now go freely to God, but more important, God is among us. A barrier was torn down. It's now imposible to get rid of God, because he is no longer just over there.(where the church building is...:-)
Second thing: Jesus was ordinary. We want our God to be spectacular in many ways. Jesus did not fit that image. He was rejected by His hometown for being "one of us". I believe that God is found in the everydayness of our lives. The mundane of life is where Jesus is truly alive.
Thirdly, Jesus walked with 12 people for three years. That gives you and average of 4 per year. Even then, one of them betrayed Him. The question is how many people can truly be part of your life in a year? About 30-40? But only about 4-12 will see you struggle, overcome and have victories. They will know what kind of food you like. What mood your in. They will make you feel safe to be you. And will love you enough to be there. It's called friendship. Something Jesus called the 12 people walking with Him.
Why these three paragraphs? Church begins with friendship. This friendship is found in the everydayness of your life. And when you get together, you have church. That means eating, praying, watching television, camping, running, crying, laughing, driving together are all holy times, because Jesus is present.
If you want to be church, you have to die to what you know of church. Bible study is no more holy than driving a friend to a meeting or eating together.
I can most probably write a whole book about this, but I am not so good with the words.
thanks and blessings
erin- i'm sorry for being so late on the uptake with this. I'm hurting for you guys and praying for you. I don't know what else to say. except, when the day comes, please do the same for me!
ReplyDeleteLyn - I have no intention of going back and I think he understands that. He just wants to take the kids there himself, and I don't really want that, either.
ReplyDeleteFinding a church that doesn't have an agenda (other than being Jesus) is a hard thing. There is a church that a couple of my friends go to that I would like to try, but it's about 25 mins. from our house, and we've done the commute thing before and it didn't work so well...
Susan - actually our CLB is technically charismatic, but is really pretty typical to the conservative agenda. But it is really big, probably 10,000 on a weekend, and therefore so much of it is run very systematically...I think that's part of what bothers me.
ReplyDeleteI do appreciate your thoughts, Susan.
Abmo - I think I pretty much agree with what you said here and I do "have church" pretty often with real life friends.
ReplyDeleteWhat we don't have is something together as a family...I'm not opposed to the kinds of thing Wayne Jacobsen talks about, groups of friends...but it's hard to foster and something like that just hasn't gelled yet. Most (all?) of our friend are tied to churches.
Also, my husband and I are from pretty different backgrounds, and he simply can't shake the need to actually "go to church". Maybe someday he will...or God will change my heart and I will be comfortable enough somewhere to return.
I do think there are many many ways that "church" happens, I'm just uncertain what's right for both me and my family.
Cindy - Don't be sorry...And thank you. And I will, for sure.
ReplyDeleteMaybe the church we used to go to is run like a business, and maybe they are into head counts...........but, the people there love God with all their hearts (at least the ones I know) and the Youth Group is awesome, I know because I volunteered in it for 2 or 3 years. I've never seen our kids happier then when we're going on a regular basis and they're worshiping God with their friends and learning of God's love. Going each week always helped to refill the batteries and get us fired up for Christ and all he is doing in our lives and the lives of others. I think it helps us keep our priorities straight and keep our focus on Christ & Others, instead of on ourselves. I'm not oblivious to the politics at a large church (or just about any church for that matter), but I still see alot of good coming from there. Just my opinion. I do agree with what abmo is saying, but I still feel the traditional church has it's place (as long as it's not being spiritually abusive like so many of them do). I guess it's different when you've had nothing but good experiences with the church and worked with a Youth Pastor who's so full of God's love and passion. It's a balance.
ReplyDeleteMy Anonymous Husband -
ReplyDeleteIt's so interesting to me how we could have had such different experiences there. I guess it's all in perspective. The ministries I was involved in were borderline abusive and you know that I was so incredibly depressed by my inability to live up to their standards. The things you were involved in were such a different animal...
I don't know that the kids were that happy there, the certainly complained about it enough. And I'm not sure what you mean by worshiping with "their friends" since there were so many services that they hardly ever saw their friends at church. It was more the other gatherings, the small groups, where they fostered friendships. That's what I liked.
I do know that people there love God, my problem was they don't love OTHERS unconditionally...only to the point that you don't disagree with them. You were never one to rock the boat, so you never experienced that...but as soon as I confided and expressed even the very beginning of some dissatisfaction to close friends, suddenly it was said "why is Erin ragging on church all the time...what's wrong with her?". Do you remember that? Suddenly I went from being a "wise woman of God" to "bitter and antagonistic" in a matter of weeks. This was BEFORE all the other stuff that went down.
I love how church can be such a simple thing for you, (I mean that, I'm not being sarcastic) but I can't help but be emotionally invested in my ministry and relationships, and in a place like that, it isn't safe. When the leadership preaches unconditional acceptance but doesn't practice it...like with a certain drummer we know...it's a problem for me. If we deviate from the specifics at all, we are rocking the boat.
Whew...look what I miss when I miss reading here a day...sorry you are having to go thru this. I know how frustrating it is when you don't agree with your spouse...especially when it concerns the kids and church...almost a lethal combination when it's both at the same time!!!
ReplyDeleteThe commute might not be so bad when you consider the option!!!
This week is the kick off week for some special kids program...Jeremy would probably enjoy it more with your boys there....man, I do hate this for you. Love you much!! ha...and will have some sex with God for you!!! :)
Donna - You so crack me up...you know we're gravitating towards the Bridge...and I know I can't complain to you about the commute.
ReplyDeleteEnjoy the sex! Hehehe.
Erin, I am sorry, but, I live in a city that at this moment has the fourth worst traffic in the US. 5 Years ago it was the worst, and rotates within the top four. So when you say a commute of 25 minutes, I go, wow that would be awesome. Much better than the hour and a half to get to work, and the two hours to get home. Driving only 35 miles. I got lucky and got transferred closer to home, 5.5 miles. With a stalled vehicle in a strategic location, it took me 33 minutes to get to work today. 20 minutes on average. Only 5.5 miles. Anyway, what I am saying is, if you find a great church, it's worth it. When you are driving, thinking that it is taking too long. Just remember, one day it took me 45 minutes to go two miles, and understand how lucky you are.
ReplyDeleteNate - I hear ya. My husband commutes 25 miles in 75 minutes, each way.
ReplyDeleteThere are a number of factors, not the least of which is that I just haven't quite reconciled things in my heart yet about returning to church.