Edit: I shamefully neglected to mention that I realize there are many male leaders in the church who DO NOT fall into the categories in this blog post. I hope my readers realize I'm not intending to make gross generalizations about ALL male Pastors, I'm simply speaking to those who continue to support gender inequality, or likewise to support those who support gender inequality. You know who you are.
---
I debated about commenting on the latest hoo-rah surrounding America's favorite male-chauvinist pastor, however, as usual, I can't help myself. So sue me. This issue is too close to my chromosomes.
Some of my "sisters" are calling it as they see it, and I'm proud of them for that. We can't just sweep the issues of gender equality under the narthex rug and call it good. Eventually it's going to stink.
Disclaimer - I do not know this person, I have never heard him teach beyond a few videos and blog posts and articles. I can't actually testify to his character, his marriage, or his leadership skills beyond those few resources. However, I do believe these resources speak volumes, and I'm just about sick to death about the way his misguided teaching is being handled in the greater church world.
So, I was in a bit of a tizzy today and was talking with a friend - asking if I'm off base on what I'm going to say here. She responded that once upon a time she heard a woman Pastor make the statement that "gender equality isn't a theological issue, it's a justice issue".
With that, I'm going to argue, again, for people to call out those who continue to teach gender inequality as Biblically acceptable by any measure.
At this time I'm not going to point fingers at specific individuals, but I may at a later date, if I get angry enough.
It sure seems to me that even in the supposedly theologically liberal, or at least tolerant, mainline/emerging circles, Pastoring is still a slap-on-the-back boys club. As a generalization about the specific issue of gender equality, whenever a male Pastor disagrees with what another male Pastor teaches, the conversation [or blog post] will go something like this:
"I thoroughly disagree with Pastor ______ on the issue of [insert favorite gender issue here - whether it be the evil of women as Pastors, biblical submission, whatever]. Many of the cultural norms in Biblical times are no longer relevant today. As I understand [cite scripture references here], it doesn't mean women are unequal to men in any way. I believe this Pastor is off base on this subject "What?
"However, Pastor ______ has an amazing ministry, he's a great evangelist, and I have tremendous respect for him. I love what he's doing in [ministry area] and I thoroughly enjoy his [books, podcasts, lectures]. I have to differ with him on this issue, but otherwise he's a great guy."
WHAT!?
Now, I'm a great proponent of can't-we-all-get-along theology in the cases of Baptism, liturgy, worship style, etc., the non-essentials, as I see it.
However I cannot and will not express that same indifference on an individual's equal rights: not gender, not race, not sexual orientation.
This is about social justice.
I honestly struggle to continue to respect or support the male emerging/missional leaders who insist on gently criticizing the specific teachings while at the same time wholeheartedly supporting the individual as a teacher.
Love the sinner, hate the sin. Is that what I'm hearing?
Someone please explain to me how an influential and loud-mouthed leader can continuously and viciously negate women as leaders or as valuable for anything other than sex, meals and child-rearing; not only that but to suggest that women are somehow at fault for their husband's acts of sexual unfaithfulness ...
... and not be yanked - clean and simple - from his pulpit?
Why? Why!?
Because in all honesty, this line of thinking benefits all men, so they are unwilling to tear it down completely. I'm sure this particular pastor's elders are all men, as are all leaders of almost any kind in his church. Because most of the strongest emerging/missional voices are still men, who still belong to the boys club even as they try to hold it at an arms distance - they secretly are afraid to speak out against it for fear of losing credibility, or worse, for fear of being accused of being, cough, feminized.
Of course, [thanks to this man and all other men like him] there are no women in the Church who are seen as possessing powerful enough voices to do anything about it.
The way I see it, we need to raise a stink! We need to say Enough! We need to say we will no longer support male leaders who do not strongly and determinedly go to bat for us on this issue - and I don't mean niceties and gentle chastisement. I mean shout it out to the other male leaders that this is an unacceptable belief system and it must end. Stomp your feet if you must - you're MEN fercryinoutloud!
As one of my sisters said today [paraphrased to protect her identity]:
"If you are a man, especially a man in a role of church leadership, and you think any of his words are ok, then you are continuing to support the oppressive silence that is perpetuated against women."I'll go one further and say:
"If you are a male in any form of Pastoral leadership and you don't call this man to the carpet, not only on specific beliefs but entirely as a leader who is damaging the place of women in the world, I hold you accountable. If you are not *AGAINST* him, then you are *FOR* him.
Thanks for listening.
53 comments:
um, is your period about to start? (ducks as lily hurls nearest item my direction)
ok, ok, all kidding aside, I hear ya. It would be, in my mind, revolutionary if the elder statesmen of the church in America began to publicly decry any inequality or sexism displayed by their peers in leadership.
Imagine if, in the times of legalized slavery in our country if the conversation went something like this:
Me: Well, Harriet, that's your opinion that slavery is wrong. I don't agree. I think the bible clearly teaches that slavery is acceptable. God creates everyone with a purpose and some people are called to serve as slaves. Of course I respect slaves. I let them eat the same food my family does, and I give them my old books so they can learn to read. So let's just agree to disagree that you think slavery is wrong, but I do not. Let's just focus on the gospel and how wonderful it is that my family, because of our wealth from slave labor, can contribute large sums of money to the church.
Slavery was no more an issue of theology than women in spiritual leadership is. It is about justice, which is defined as :
noun
1. the quality of being just or fair
I hope that this ridiculous debate over women in leadership will be moot by the time my children are grown. This is sooooo 15th century...
wow, I can feel your energy from here.
My daughter has been raised in a church where women lead, use their gifts (her mommy even gets to teach on the pulpit from time to time. She would not understand the argument because, in her experience, women serve with their gifts. I'm grateful for that..
Wow Lily, you have more balls than me! ;)
yes yes yes and amen yes!
but see, it doesn't matter what we say because we're in a lose lose situation.
if we take a stand we're liberal feminist bra burning man haters.
OR
we aren't humble (If I'm asked one more time why I need a title and why I can't just be happy serving in the areas I'm "allowed" I'm going to spew)
And most men (esp. white straight men, as are most "leaders" in christianity in the west) aren't going to see the importance because they're...helloo! MEN!
and as you said, what would happen to their boys club if women were actually honest to goodnessly allowed in...really truly and not just as the token representative of the female gender.
*sigh* 15+ years of this is starting to weigh heavy on my soul.
LOL! I am rolling on the floor at Pam's comment!
You preach! I just saw a video, not sure if your un-named pastor is the same guy, but it sure could be. I was very insulted as a woman...
GREAT POST, great comments and yeah, you do have some gonads, girl!
Lily, personally, I ignore pastors and "leaders" who still drag women around by their hair. I am positive that you are right on this issue. And it's more than just an issue about women; it's an issue about humanity. Where one person can see another as someone not worthy of equal stature, you can bet that he places everyone, and not just women, on a plain somewhere far below himself. This issue goes deeper than gender inequality; it speaks of the very character of the character.
We speak of love as "Christians", and I say here and now, that anyone who can see women or any other person or race as somehow being ordained by God to be less than another, does not know what love is. Remember, love is not arrogant, and it is the height of arrogance to relegate another human being to the back of the bus.
It's clear that these "leaders" missed the "sermon" about who is the greatest. You remember that one? It was the one where Jesus told his disciples that he who would be great must first be least?
I guess that means, Lily, that all the men who claim leadership missed the boat and are still wallowing amongst the least. Don't tell them; let them wallow. You can always recognize a wolf by his sheepish grin, until he bears his teeth.
Now...what's for dinner? ;>)
Where one person can see another as someone not worthy of equal stature, you can bet that he places everyone, and not just women, on a plain somewhere far below himself.
Great insight Tom. I think these attitudes are very damaging to the men that hold them.
Pam - Nope. And yeah, you better duck!
Seriously, I agree with what you've said. It just fries me that here in 2007 this can still go on - even as we have a woman as a viable candidate for the Presidency.
Trace - I'm so glad your daughter doesn't have to deal with this. I wish that was the case in more churches.
Grace - I have tried to think of something witty to say in response, but all I can think of is "Don't tell my husband."
Thanks for sharing this journey with me, too.
Makeesha - Thanks for commenting here on this. I second what you've said - esp. about "helloo, they're men".
Let's hope we can see the end of this in our generation. Stranger things have happened.
Barbara - The video you saw is likely the one I'm talking about. And thanks for the compliment.
Tom - I was wondering if any of the guys would weigh in on this. Thanks for stepping up.
I (and womenkind) appreciate the support of men who aren't threatened by gender equality. If we can still qualify or disqualify someone from something based on a genetic factor, we are still in the dark ages. It's sad.
thank you for saying what needs to be said.
Julie - You're welcome. Thanks for being supportive.
Yep...well said my friend!! You do need to read the book I just finished about Junia!!!
Donna - Thanks for the compliment. We need to hook up so I can borrow that book!
Hey Lilly,
As a male church leader I have spoken up against this particular unnamed pastor and against sexism in general on a number of occasions on my blog. I'm afraid I don't have any more authority than that to "call him on it" - nor does anyone else that I'm aware of for that matter. That's the problem when a pastor like that has his own independent, nondenominational megachurch. He doesn't really have to be accountable to anyone.
Anyhow, if I remain silent about this latest incident it's only because I don't think this guy deserves any more time or space on my blog. We'd all be a lot better off if everyone just stopped paying any attention to him. He's influential because people watch his videos, read his books and invite him to conferences. Frankly I think we should just stop listening. Let him fade and disappear. Let him keep preaching to the boys club while the rest of us go about the business of the kingdom.
(Note, I'm not saying we shouldn't resist injustice or just ignore it - but I am saying that sometimes, if the power of a particular oppressor rests on their ability to get people to listen to what they say, then one way to rob them of their power is to simply stop listening.)
Anyhow, that's why, even though I condemn all forms of sexism and have written about it often in the past, I won't be blogging about this particular pastor or his most recent offense. He's just not worth my time anymore.
Hi Mike - Thanks very much for commenting. I appreciate what you have said and I agree that technically there isn't anything anyone (other than his elders) can do about him. I also appreciate you choosing not to lend him any more blog real estate or voice.
I'd like to use my response to your comment to clarify a few of my thoughts in general.
I think what I'm saying is I would really like to see the male leaders who insist on patting this guy on the back - even though they say they disagree with him on this issue - to stop it. I am tired of hearing people who say they vehemently disagree with him turn around and say what an amazing ministry he has (or whatever compliment they choose) out of the other side of their mouth. It seems like so many men are afraid to actually say this guy is wrong, period.
It isn't like he's preaching for immersion and against sprinkling or some other *negotiable* theological issue. His beliefs are downright and genetically abusive to 50% of the population; this isn't just a theological debate, it's a human rights issue.
I don't expect most traditional leaders to stand up to this, that goes without saying; and I don't even expect the person in question to discontinue preaching it...
I think I'm most frustrated with the emerging-ish leaders who insist on disclaimers such as "I don't agree with him on this issue, but otherwise, he's a great guy."
I think if enough people who do disagree with him, if they really do, would discontinue to support him in any fashion - even to talk about him or his ministry, maybe eventually we'd see a change. Here's hoping.
And really, this isn't about just one individual, it's about a mindset.
Like you said, Mike, "He's not worth my time anymore" - I'd love to see more of that going on, instead of this "I disagree with him, BUT..."
And really, this isn't about just one individual, it's about a mindset.
this is the crux of the matter...
I think it is not only an issue of justice but also of eschatalogical reality - in the end we're all equally loved and restored in our humanity together by God. So if we are all equal in Christ than why should we try and take any stance of power over each other - whether its ethic, gender or economic based - shouldn't we instead realise we need each other, that it is as male and female together we are created in the image of God and more than that, Jesus who modelled perfect humanity showed that it was not about domination at all but loving, other centred, service/servanthood...
wait a minute i'm sure i've read all that before, that St Paul seems to be ahead of his time and living not by what had gone before but by what is to come...
so now i've preached to the choir i guess my final thought is how do we together serve each other - how did all those great examples of revolutionary non-violent change from hate to love, from injustice to justice, from victim to equal go about it - Jesus, St Paul, wilberforce, MLK, gandhi, Mandela... be good to have some female names there, along with some male ones too, who led a peaceful loving restoring movement that led to the end of this injustice... and indeed all those others that are still about today...
Pam - Yeah.
Paul - You are so right - thanks for articulating some things I couldn't. I appreciate your insight - especially about St. Paul and living not by what was before but what is to come.
Thanks.
Lily, I totally agree with you about that. I have encountered a number of emerging-ish leaders who do still keep winking at this stuff. They say exactly what you quoted, i.e. "I disagree with him about this issue, but..." I even got into a few heated arguments about this exact issue on my denomination's "emerging church" blog back in November the last time the shit hit the fan with this particular guy. What I had the hardest time with was convincing otherwise sympathetic people that gender restrictions in the church were a justice issue. They disagreed with the comparison to racism and said that since men and women are inherently different in some ways we shouldn't complain to much that some leaders want to restrict roles based on gender.
I totally disagree of course, but it was hard convincing them to see that "men and women are different" does not equal "it's okay to restrict women's roles in the church" and that to do the latter is a justice issue. It was a rather discouraging conversation to be honest. These kind of attitudes are deeply ingrained. (And not just among men. Most of those whom I was arguing with on that particular occasion were women.)
But anyhow, all that to say I agree and I hope more emerging leaders do have the courage to more wholeheartedly disown these kind of attitudes.
lily - thanks for putting that out there! i have encountered guys like this and as far as i am concerned they ought to experience what it is like to be a "shepherd" without any "sheep", i.e., people need to get out from under his little flock. you can count on my voice being employed to communicate that this guy is communicating absolute dung! thanks again.
Mike - Thanks for supporting this issue. It's nice to know there are male leaders who are behind this cause; and to know I'm not the only one who has noticed this two-faced phenomenon.
Thanks for your thoughts. I aappreciate the dialog.
Rob - Welcome - nice to meet you.
Thanks for the supportive comments. I worry about the people who are damaged by this type of teaching. and I do hope that eventually something will be done.
I hear what you are saying, Lily. I think I know which leader you are referring to. Initials MD?
TL - Spot on. I just don't want to name him in my post because that drives hits that I don't necessarily want; and I don't want to advertise for him, either.
Thanks for commenting. ((Hug))
... not that I'm afraid to get hits from people who disagree with me, I'm just trying to avoid flames and shouting matches.
Preach it sister! The unnamed one and his noxious teaching is dangerous. Sadly, his church is the largest, and fastest growing church in my state, and he's just half an hour from my house.
Even though he was relieved of his editorial status in a local paper, the media still considers him to be just another Christian. They think most of us are just like him.
He indoctrinates vulnerable people, just coming to faith in Christ. Many of them have come out of very dysfunctional lives, and he provides structure and a sense of family. They are open to his world where chauvinism is the norm. He cleverly props up these doctrines with out-of-context proof-texts.
It may never come to a Kool-aid situation, but this man has unfettered power. It appears that he has an unfettered ego, and often, an unfettered mouth.
If he views women being of value primarily to relieve mens' sexual tension and as reproductive machines, then perhaps it's only a matter of time before his low view of women and his power corrupts his judgment, so that he legally crosses the line with a women.
Of course, he would probably strongly disagree with my characterization of his teaching, saying that he puts women on a pedestal. But he has clearly taught these things:
- "women will be saved by going back to that role that God has for them."
- "There is no occasion where women led a society and were its heads and the men complied and followed. ... It's a matter of Biblical creation."
- "No woman wants a man to treat her like another man because if we do, you cry."
- "some women think they can do everything on their own and that if men sit by idly like cowards because they don't want to get into with with their hot-headed, emotional, wives, eventually the women will take over the church, and then the church will go to hell."
- "Husbands are responsible to ensure that their wives are not ungodly and acting in sinful and disruptive ways in the church."
I've had posts on my blog from women from his church who claim that he loves and respects women. But that's if those women adhere to the roles that he proscribes for them.
Hey Gary - Thanks so much for commenting on this - I was hoping you would. Some of the reason I have come to feel so strongly about this issue is due to stuff you've written about it.
Thanks for sharing the your thoughts and the quotes. I am sad to think his church is growing so fast - hopefully it will implode before something really goes wrong.
I worry about the women like the ones you mentioned who are being harmed by this teaching. I pray for them on a regular basis.
most men like him think they put women on a pedestal..twisted demon logic if you ask me. It makes me think back to when slave owners bragged about how well they treated their slaves because if they didn't, they wouldn't be well enough to do the work.
I also want to emphasize that this teaching is extremely damaging and offensive to men too.
My husband is far more Christ like than the man of whom you speak (I feel like a harry potter book...he who must not be named hehe) but he would characterize my husband as one of those "limp wristed hippies". I find this extremely offensive and reprehensible to suggest that i'm a strong woman because my husband is a pansy.
The problem though is very similar to the catch 22 we find ourselves in as women in this conversation. If men like my husband speak out loudly against his stereotypically american macho ideal, they're tossed aside and labeled and dismissed.
It's extremely disturbing to me that his "elders" are brainwashed so much that they don't hold him accountable for his words and behavior and that there isn't anyone around prophetic enough to judge the situation as extremely volatile.
Makeesha - Thanks for your comments!
I know so many women leaders have been fighting for this for ages - and in recent months I have really enjoyed hearing women like Lisa Domke speak on the subject. In some ways I feel really late to the game. But I'm recovering from being brainwashed most of my adult life that a *good christian woman* is *just so* and *not this* - if you know what I mean - and really what I've experienced was minor compared to the person in question - most of what I was taught was to help us ladies feel more comfortable and compliant about our *role* - and we were provided ample separate-but-equal opportunities in the church - but there still was no question about what our *place* was. I have just in the last two years or so had it dawn on me that this is NOT Ok.
Sorry - off on a tangent there...
I know what you mean about harry potter LOL...
My husband, too...you know when we married (I married into a very conservative traditional christian family and a long line of preachers) I conformed to the *standards* in order to be acceptable to the OTHER WOMEN (believe me, I had heard them talk about women behind their backs for suck little and stupid *infractions* and I didn't want that to be me) But of course, they were catty and opinionated about the place of a woman because they were given no other choice by their men.
About two years ago when I had my meltdown - one thing I was fighting against was this image of a *godly woman* which was so really NOT me. As I began to detox from the brainwashing - I told my husband "I'm sorry I'm not able to be a godly woman like your mom. I was sorry I've failed to be the woman you wanted me to be."
You know what he said?
"What do you mean? I NEVER wanted you to be like my mom - I thought YOU wanted to be like her. I want you to be like you were when we met - VERY MUCH NOT like my mom. I love that you have opinions and are strong and a little wild!"
Funny what 13 years of miscommunication can do.
But in any case he would be considered feminized (or I can think of another less pg-13 word). It's really sad.
Anyhow thanks for the conversation!
Makeesha, your comments here are so true, but SO frustrating . . . it is a lose lose situation for women and the men that support, as Rob Horton has called it, restorative justice for women.
Lily,if you are late coming into the game, so a I! Because of the rampant divorce culture in my family, I was seeking another way. I became prey to this teaching ... THIS teaching is exactly what I was immersed in for years. It very nearly destroyed me and my marriage.
For years, my husband and I tried to force ourselves into those roles and it did NOT work. Wait, honestly, it was me ... trying to force myself into that "Titus 2 role" and him into that "male leadership role". It just left me with guilt, guilt, guilt all the time. Left my husband quite frustrated because he has always considered us as equals, never saw the need for him to be the "lord of our household"
Now we are detoxing from all of those years. I have described it as tearing down the house, sifting through the rubble, discarding the toxic waste and searching for the treasures that we want to hold onto.
It has been a difficult process. We are only now on the first baby steps of understanding how our marriage can be different, how it can offer us the freedom of being equal partners.
Not that many years ago, before my own spiritual implosion, I joined a church with similar beliefs. They also were growing rapidly, from 150 to 500 in a year. I loved their passion, their music, and the strength, clarity, and delivery of the preaching. And they had such a vision for reaching the community. Clearly it was working.
I had been attending a membership class, just to find out more. My wife had gone to the first class. I went to the second one alone. At the conclusion of the class I joined.
I went home and told my wife. It was then that I learned that she was not terribly pleased with my decision, to say the least. She asked if I had noticed that women were not allowed in leadership? What did that say about her? And what about her baptism? She was baptized as an infant and would have to be rebaptized for them to recognize it. She felt this was unnecessary and a repudiation of her parents' faith. She did not mention that this pastor was friends with Jack MacArthur (shudder). I listened, recognized that I had made a mistake, and we immediately stopped attending that church.
My theology has changed a great deal since then. But I had to be broken first. At the time I had no idea that that was coming soon. Thank God I crashed and burned and that He was there to gradually pick up the pieces.
BTW, the church that I mentioned at the beginning of these comments, well it joined another church and then sort of died. I have no idea as to where the pastor is now. Perhaps he went down to California to be with his friend, MacArthur.
One other thing. During that time I became good friends with the worship leader. He had six grammy awards and was a very gifted man. We almost went into business together. Thank God that didn't work out. He had graduated from Bob Jones University and looked back on that education as far too conservative. I guess felt that dropping racism but maintaining chauvinism was progress.
Lily,
Thanks for keeping the conversation open.
I posted on M*** D*** on my blog and used his name and was immediately picked up by a technorati spider. I went back and edited it, because I got a comment from someone who I KNOW had to be from you know where.... LOL
Anyway,
I am finding so many voices here... that I have come across time and time again. It seems like a community when you see their names! I love it!
Lily, I'm with you... It is well and good enough for the guys who say, "I don't agree with his stand on ____, but over all he's an ok guy." But this is basically condoning his mindset.
I am so thankful for the MEN you have commenting in here!
I ignored this particular incident for a while, but I realize that there are people who NEED to hear our voices, so they can find their own. Women and men who are caught up in it, but feel trapped and want out.
It was in this type of forum that I was able to find my voice in the emerging church community. It was hearing others and seeing that I wasn't alone and wasn't crazy.
I just had a conversation with Cynthia, a commenter here, (we are IRLBFF) and we still have the occasion when we think, Am I making all this up? Am I making something out of nothing?
So, thanks for those who are speaking out. I think it brings healing in our own lives for us to identify toxins in our own lives and it brings healing to others as they see that they are not alone in their journey.
Cynthia - This post exceeds my comment record by more than double and I so appreciate that people feel safe enough to talk about it here.
This teaching very nearly destroyed my marriage as well. it wasn't until I was so broken that I saw leaving my husband as my only option to retain an ounce of my sanity that things began to change in me.
The paragraph where you said you tried to force yourself into roles - LOL that is EXACTLY us. Every word of it.
I bless you guys as you work your way out of this unhealthy teaching. The process has made our marriage 100% better than it ever was before.
Thanks for sharing.
Gary - It's just like you said in an earlier post - and I seconded it - we find these seemingly *great* churches and then find out they have an acts 29 mentality. *Sigh*.
It's interesting to me - in my experience - the church I'm detoxing from doesn't *seem* like that conservative of a denomination - and truthfully they even teach equality, but once you become immersed there, once you get plugged into leadership, you realize how bad things really are - and that what is *taught* isn't what is really *practiced*.
Joy - I am so thankful for my blog friends - they have meant the world to me in my journey - it's also so much fun to make new friends like you and Cynthia and Makeesha - I so appreciate that.
It is an important issue and I'm glad people like you and I are finding our voices.
"His beliefs are downright and genetically abusive to 50% of the population; this isn't just a theological debate, it's a human rights issue."
Lily,
Actually, that would be 60% of the population, if we are speaking about the Church. :-) And the other 40% being "chickified dudes" if you go by what this unnamed pastor says about the men in churches.
Do men realize how insulting it is for a woman to hear anything deficient called "feminized"? Think about it. Isn't it a direct insult to God? If anything, they really need to come up with another euphemism for a weak and ineffective church. Women are neither weak or ineffective.
The "Ultimate Fighting Jesus" gospel is totally off balance. I do have to wonder why so many women "got" Jesus and the men didn't? I think this pastor has recreated Jesus in his own image and now he expects us to worship his idol with him.
Yes, Jesus is strong and He is Victorious over all but the "Hippie Jesus in a dress drinking herbal tea" comes very close, imho, to mocking the essence of Jesus as gentle, meek, humble. After all, that is why many people fell away because he was not the "Gun-toting Rambo Jesus" that this unnamed pastor would like us to believe He was.
In that video, it was said that men need a Jesus they can worship and he tells them to give these young men that version of Jesus. Well, that is idolatry. Jesus is a complete package. It seems that part of Jesus' true essence is repulsive to him and his manhood. That part is too "femmy". Where do we see the Jesus this pastor preaches about in the Gospels? What will these young men do when they have to read through the gospels and what they have been told by this pastor doesn't jive with what they are reading?
"I've had posts on my blog from women from his church who claim that he loves and respects women."
Gary,
Yeah, I just feel the "love" when I read those quotes you posted! ;-)
The whole ironic thing is that I am still pretty firmly on the "complementarian" side of things but those quotes truly show what is in the heart of this man and his ATTITUDE towards women.
If I hear one more time a bad church being described as "feminized", I may just have to "man up" and tell someone to "PARK IT!!!"
And, the imagery of a gun being cocked is interesting. I wonder if he considers women as soldiers, too? Is that imagery in the Bible only directed at men? Which parts of the Bible and on living the Christian life apply only to men? I am sure it is scary to some guys to think of women locking and loading! LOL
corrie - that's what I find so bizarre about this whole topic. here's what i'm hearing:
the church is too feminized
we have emasculated Christ
therefore we need to make the church more "manly"
But here's the problem - in most of the church, women are attenders at a higher percentage but not represented in leadership. So where exactly is this feminization coming from?
As it is women have had to adapt to a "man's world" even in the church. We have had to accept being led by men, counseled by men, told what to do by men. We've had to hear sermons from a man's perspective EVERY SINGLE WEEK OF OUR LIVES..which for me has been 28 years.
And NOW they want to make the church further masculine? which, by the way means more colonial and more "western macho american masculine". Why is it that we're supposed to change for the men at the expense of women?
women everywhere are turning to religions that honor the feminine, that respect the leadership and fully HUMAN place of women in society. This should concern the church universal.
Corrie - I sure appreciate your comments. Where do you find the time...?
Anyhow thanks for your thoughts - I was thinking that 50% of the population in general is women but you're right.
It saddens me, like you said, that the meek and humble Jesus just isn't manly enough for these guys.
Thanks for the discussion.
Makeesha - Thanks for the ongoing conversation. I appreciate it.
I love what you said about having to adapt to a mans world, even in the church.
I do see more and more formerly Christian women turning to the "Goddess religions". It's sad - but unfortunately understandable in many ways.
MD's description of what a "real man" is like (as in that video) sounds like every jock/jerk guy that I always hated growing up and never wanted to be like. If that's what it means to be masculine, then I'm happy to be a "limp-wristed, soy-latte drinking, chickified dude". His rhetoric, IMHO, should be just as offensive to most men as it is to women. He manages to insult and exclude any men that don't happen to fit his hyper-masculinized, aggressive, over-sexed "manly man" stereotype. If that's what it means to be a man then I'm happy to be "feminized".
(Pam peeks her head into the room to see if the crowd has thinned out yet, for she can't stand being in a crowded room...)
Whew. Well that was a doozy, now wasn't it?
And I have to admit, that I have wondered at times if he-who-shall-not-be-mentioned was becoming an unfair target for all forms of sexism that have existed in Christendom since the early years. But after reading all these comments, and quotes, especially from the Men like Gary and Mike and others, well, geesh, unflippinbelievable (except maybe flippin's not the word I was really thinking of ...)
Yeah, he's a piece of work. I wonder what happened to him to create this kind of spiritual chauvinism. Does it trickle down through the A-29 organization?
Argh. Manly for Jesus. Womanly for Jesus. Maybe we need to just focus on being Humanly. Otherwise, most of us are not manly, nor womanly enough to fulfill our supposed gender roles and assignments.
There's a person I know who is trans-gendered. They were born a boy but feel that they really ought to be a girl. So this is how they identify themselves. I don't understand all the issues around gender identity, but what I do know is that God loves people no matter what. Gender, I am convinced, is part of our outward appearance, the part that an Old Testament prophet named Samuel warned us about :
Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.
Mike - Amen. I definitely think that's another problematic subject of this person's teaching. The two go hand-in-hand really, the vision of the *strong* man and the *weak* woman. It's really too bad.
I enjoy sharing leadership with my husband, and he would have it no other way.
Pam - Taking time to visit my humble abode while you're on vacation? Thanks.
Humanly. That's pretty cool. I'll look forward to your post about being "humanly".
You know, he is an easy target - but he's also causing a lot of trouble and so much of what he says is *fightin' words* - that I don't feel it's unfair, as long as we are clear that we are battling against a mentality and not just an individual.
thanks for the power of your voice
Bob - You're welcome. Nice to meet you.
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